Hi Eddy, I think the solo stats are likely bolstered by the backpacking subset. Based on my experience on the trails, there are a substantial amount of solo hikers.

The Parks numbers are almost assuredly skewed lower.  Couples tripping together, 2 families of 4 etc. Arriving in separate cars will most likely make separate bookings now. Under a flat rate there is a big incentive to book together.

So if the Park thinks their avg party size is 4 now, it isn’t. It will be 5 or more maybe under a flat rate fee.

That doesn’t sound like more revenue for AP to me.

In fairness it might for a park like Killarney which is always full with  tons of easy access lakes. The consolidation would free up more sites. This would happen in AP to an extent as well on easy access lakes. Hard to get to lakes in AP are less frequently full so less benefits there.

Again the easy route with no guesswork involved  is just to raise the per person fee.

Last edited by ShawnD (3/25/2021 7:21 am)

ShawnD wrote:

The Parks numbers are almost assuredly skewed lower. Couples tripping together, 2 families of 4 etc. Arriving in separate cars will most likely make separate bookings now. Under a flat rate there is a big incentive to book together.

So if the Park thinks their avg party size is 4 now, it isn’t. It will be 5 or more maybe under a flat rate fee.

That doesn’t sound like more revenue for AP to me.

In fairness it might for a park like Killarney which is always full with tons of easy access lakes. The consolidation would free up more sites. This would happen in AP to an extent as well on easy access lakes. Hard to get to lakes in AP are less frequently full so less benefits there.

Again the easy route with no guesswork involved is just to raise the per person fee.

I'm sure the numbers are skewed somewhat.  Although I can only imagine over the last few years as kayaks and pack boats have become more popular that soloist have increased.  

That being said, as you mentioned I don't see this making places like APP any more, potentially even less if groups exceed 4 on average. 

Increasing the per person rate or having a per person rate for groups less than 4 and flat rate for 4 or more would also not be unreasonable.  Something along those lines anyways.  

@Eddy, I think everyone totally forgot about backpackers in this whole discussion.  Which is a mistake as they are many of them, maybe more so in APP than other parks. But they would be hit just as hard. 

nvm wrote:

10% fee hike, 10 minutes of coding to make it happen, no one would say a thing and the parks would become self sustaining. It’s mind boggling that they didn’t just go with that approach.

Someone needs to run for office and this needs to be their mantra.


 

BB wrote:

@Eddy, I think everyone totally forgot about backpackers in this whole discussion.  Which is a mistake as they are many of them, maybe more so in APP than other parks. But they would be hit just as hard. 

Then I wonder if hikers are involved in any way in this discussion and are aware of the petition? Unfortunately I'm not familiar with their forums and Facebook groups.May be FB is more popular media for Ontario backpackers than AP forums? It's just an assumption on my part since I don't have social media accounts.
 

If anyone is looking for some good Facebook groups feel free to PM me. I won't post them here so as not to distract from the discussion of fee changes. 

Eddy turn, I find the opposite is true, there are far more soloists and couples than there are large groups except on the "main street" routes.
 Once you get more than a day from the put-ins it's almost exclusively groups of 4 or less- soloists, couples, and families with one or two kids. just for logistics alone large groups are difficult for more than a few days due to different paddling styles and speed, food preferences, and abilities.
Your perception may be skewed simply because large groups are more noticeable,and take more time to cross lakes or portages, increasing your chances of contact. When I solo or go with my wife or a friend, you'd be hard pressed to even know I was there once I stop for the night, because one small tent set back from the lake, a single canoe pulled up and placed on the site, and a small fire (if any) isn't, all that noticeable compared to 3-4 canoes, a large cooking fire, and as many as 6 tents.

EddyTurn wrote:

scoutergriz: our statistics differ for some reason, but it's not a perception. Traveling mostly solo myself I remember almost every solo boat I've ever met in the AP in 20 years of travel. Main street or off.  Since 2014 in about 40 days I met about 4-5 of them (not counting kayakers on Opeongo). And altogether it's under a dozen among many hundreds tandems, May to October. Of course it's easier to miss a single boat than a group on a bigger lake, but single solo is as easy to see as a single tandem (or almost - solo paddlers rarely talk to themselves). I can't testify to how many tandems travel in large or small groups - hard to tell unless one counts them. My impression is it's mostly 2-3 tandems in a group, unless it's a kids camp.

Didn’t know I was such a rarity.