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ShawnD wrote:
The Parks numbers are almost assuredly skewed lower. Couples tripping together, 2 families of 4 etc. Arriving in separate cars will most likely make separate bookings now. Under a flat rate there is a big incentive to book together.
So if the Park thinks their avg party size is 4 now, it isn’t. It will be 5 or more maybe under a flat rate fee.
That doesn’t sound like more revenue for AP to me.
In fairness it might for a park like Killarney which is always full with tons of easy access lakes. The consolidation would free up more sites. This would happen in AP to an extent as well on easy access lakes. Hard to get to lakes in AP are less frequently full so less benefits there.
Again the easy route with no guesswork involved is just to raise the per person fee.
I'm sure the numbers are skewed somewhat. Although I can only imagine over the last few years as kayaks and pack boats have become more popular that soloist have increased.
That being said, as you mentioned I don't see this making places like APP any more, potentially even less if groups exceed 4 on average.
Increasing the per person rate or having a per person rate for groups less than 4 and flat rate for 4 or more would also not be unreasonable. Something along those lines anyways.
@Eddy, I think everyone totally forgot about backpackers in this whole discussion. Which is a mistake as they are many of them, maybe more so in APP than other parks. But they would be hit just as hard.
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10% fee hike, 10 minutes of coding to make it happen, no one would say a thing and the parks would become self sustaining. It’s mind boggling that they didn’t just go with that approach.
This
But also, when does the Gov't ever do anything the easy way or what makes sense?
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10% fee hike, 10 minutes of coding to make it happen, no one would say a thing and the parks would become self sustaining. It’s mind boggling that they didn’t just go with that approach.
Someone needs to run for office and this needs to be their mantra.
@Eddy, I think everyone totally forgot about backpackers in this whole discussion. Which is a mistake as they are many of them, maybe more so in APP than other parks. But they would be hit just as hard.
Then I wonder if hikers are involved in any way in this discussion and are aware of the petition? Unfortunately I'm not familiar with their forums and Facebook groups.May be FB is more popular media for Ontario backpackers than AP forums? It's just an assumption on my part since I don't have social media accounts.
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@Eddy, I think everyone totally forgot about backpackers in this whole discussion. Which is a mistake as they are many of them, maybe more so in APP than other parks. But they would be hit just as hard.
Then I wonder if hikers are involved in any way in this discussion and are aware of the petition? Unfortunately I'm not familiar with their forums and Facebook groups.May be FB is more popular media for Ontario backpackers than AP forums? It's just an assumption on my part since I don't have social media accounts.
Good questions - although I have traditionally backpacked more than canoed, this has been my go to forum (a great group of people on here!). I haven't come across any other forum of this calibre geared more toward backpacking, but I too don't have social media accounts, so who knows. I must say that I do sense a greater camaraderie amongst canoeists!
Last edited by hiker72 (3/25/2021 8:59 pm)
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If anyone is looking for some good Facebook groups feel free to PM me. I won't post them here so as not to distract from the discussion of fee changes.
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This is the first I'm hearing about the rate hike. The last great deal to be had for provincial services is now history. I recall the first time I ever booked a backcountry trip I was amazed at how great the price was that I called a buddy and booked a second one right away. Think about how great that was .. always a great sight (almost always) and right on the lake .. something you dont get car camping unless you are lucky enough to book 5 months ahead.
Oh well ... I'm still gonna go but agree with the solo enthusiasts .. not fair to them.
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Eddy turn, I find the opposite is true, there are far more soloists and couples than there are large groups except on the "main street" routes.
Once you get more than a day from the put-ins it's almost exclusively groups of 4 or less- soloists, couples, and families with one or two kids. just for logistics alone large groups are difficult for more than a few days due to different paddling styles and speed, food preferences, and abilities.
Your perception may be skewed simply because large groups are more noticeable,and take more time to cross lakes or portages, increasing your chances of contact. When I solo or go with my wife or a friend, you'd be hard pressed to even know I was there once I stop for the night, because one small tent set back from the lake, a single canoe pulled up and placed on the site, and a small fire (if any) isn't, all that noticeable compared to 3-4 canoes, a large cooking fire, and as many as 6 tents.
scoutergriz: our statistics differ for some reason, but it's not a perception. Traveling mostly solo myself I remember almost every solo boat I've ever met in the AP in 20 years of travel. Main street or off. Since 2014 in about 40 days I met about 4-5 of them (not counting kayakers on Opeongo). And altogether it's under a dozen among many hundreds tandems, May to October. Of course it's easier to miss a single boat than a group on a bigger lake, but single solo is as easy to see as a single tandem (or almost - solo paddlers rarely talk to themselves). I can't testify to how many tandems travel in large or small groups - hard to tell unless one counts them. My impression is it's mostly 2-3 tandems in a group, unless it's a kids camp.
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scoutergriz: our statistics differ for some reason, but it's not a perception. Traveling mostly solo myself I remember almost every solo boat I've ever met in the AP in 20 years of travel. Main street or off. Since 2014 in about 40 days I met about 4-5 of them (not counting kayakers on Opeongo). And altogether it's under a dozen among many hundreds tandems, May to October. Of course it's easier to miss a single boat than a group on a bigger lake, but single solo is as easy to see as a single tandem (or almost - solo paddlers rarely talk to themselves). I can't testify to how many tandems travel in large or small groups - hard to tell unless one counts them. My impression is it's mostly 2-3 tandems in a group, unless it's a kids camp.
Didn’t know I was such a rarity.
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sorry, but I've LED trips for over 20 years and know for a fact that most groups end up spread over a km or more, and KNOW most people don't realize they're a group until they get to the site.
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know for a fact that most groups end up spread over a km or more, and KNOW most people don't realize they're a group until they get to the site.
This is pretty consistent with my experience as well.
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So it appears I got an actual non-form letter reply from Jeff Turek about an idea to help combat site scalping.
Dear Brandon,
Thanks so much for taking the time to share this idea, I will review and discuss it with my policy team at the ministry.
Thanks again and take good care,
Jeff Yurek, MPP
Elgin-Middlesex-London
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I would encourage everyone to keep writing MPPs coming up to the election.
I think outside of commercial outfitters running trips the majority of people will pay more with the new model.
It would make far more sense to increase the per person fee by a few dollars and charge for every vehicle (rather than 1 free car and a fee for each additional vehicle).
I have emailed the cons to tell them they will not get my vote if they go to flat fees for the parks. Period.
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It would make far more sense to increase the per person fee by a few dollars and charge for every vehicle (rather than 1 free car and a fee for each additional vehicle).
I have emailed the cons to tell them they will not get my vote if they go to flat fees for the parks. Period.
I was with you on the few bucks more per night, (say, bring it up to $15 per person, per night, including tax) but having to pay extra to park your car, when the only reasonable way to get to Algonquin is with a vehicle, is where you lost me. That's just as 'gouge-worthy' as the new price structure.
Ultimately, I think this will cost the park more than it will generate. Most people I've spoken to about this are of the attitude 'ill take my chances with a fine'. When the fine is just over the cost of a 3 night trip (based on $45/night), I think a lot of people will opt for the fine via taking their chances. Plenty of access points outside the park boundary where there would be no way to prove where you went, unless caught in the act.
My attitude is simple - I'll play by the rules so long as they make sense and are reasonable. Once logic and reason are tossed out the window in exchange for gouging and record profits, I'll play by my own rules. It's the outdoors were talking about here.
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One of the problems that emerged when they started charging for extra vehicles is that now people going in larger groups are booking on multiple permits which means lakes look full when they are not.
They are going to increase fees. That seems like a given. So the question is what is reasonable and fair?
I think charging per vehicle and per person is the fairest approach. I would also be okay with increasing per person fees a bit more and not charging per vehicle too.
Either way if people object to flat fees they need to be emailing their MPPs.
The only people regularly going out in groups of 5+ are outfitters so I can’t see how anyone would see this flat fee thing as a good thing 🤷🏻♀️
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I also think anyone who doesn’t realize they are going to increase the policing of permits is mistaken. They appear to have already started this in Temagami.
And everyone saying they fine is only x dollars. I’m not so sure. Is it only x dollars or is each night breaking the rule a separate fine (like it is for bottles)?
I also don’t think we want to stop supporting the parks. If we want backcountry camping to exist we need to support it. I think we also need to fight for fair access 🤷🏻♀️
I encourage people to write those letters.
