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John,
I think doing something like bussing would definately change the dynamic - but having worked in the whitewater industry I don't see any difference between parents signing a liability form for Suzy and Billy to go rafting (which many parents do even though it says the company is not liable for death) and going down a road with a sign - that said the road I live on has that sign and maybe parents who take their kids rafting are a different demographic from kids who go to wolf howls. Basin Road is probably way too far for most southeners but who knows - eventually the Park may open up this corner and connect it to the rest of the park via canoe routes so it can serve as a real exit point. Then again this is a fully hypothetical argument 
which is probably irrelevant because the park is probably just going to keep paying the OPP.
Christine
Last edited by ChristineCanoes (9/09/2015 7:24 pm)
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Every time I see this pic John I have a big smile on my face knowing that most people have no clue where it is see you on E5
Shawn G
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Christine,
"Then again this is a fully hypothetical argument 
which is probably irrelevant because the park is probably just going to keep paying the OPP."
Gotta agree that with almost a million visitors paying user fees, the money will be there for wolf howls. But if there are no wolves to be heard along Hwy 60, popularity might fade as time drags on?
IIRC Mike Runtz has written that Hwy 60 wolves aren't there to howl back during the August wolf howls while OTOH the bussed howls from Bonnechere and Achray are producing results.
Again IIRC there is at least one private operator offering APP wolf howl trips of some kind... maybe those with an interest in making some money could be there selling tickets on nights when no wolves are heard... we have wolves, guaranteed to howl back.
PS... mooses guaranteed also!
Last edited by frozentripper (9/14/2015 8:34 am)
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The construction on the highway has been a complicating factor, leaving the section from Sunday Creek to the East Gate unavailable for public wolf howls, as I understand it. Perhaps the construction delays have exacerbated the situation regarding stoppages for traffic due to public wolf howls, perhaps not. There are still wolves sometimes along the highway, but they must stay in a location (best if Tuesday night and Wednesday night) for a public wolf howl to occur on a Thursday night. It has been that way for about fifty years. Some years there are lots of public howls, some years there are few if any. Wolves (adults and young) were heard along highway 60 (The Frank MacDougall Parkway) last night. One historical note: Until sometime in the 1950s I gather the gates at either end of the highway were blocked by a barrier which had to be raised for one to enter or leave the Park, with a ranger there to guard and operate the barrier.
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Why not charge the attendees for the wolf howl and use those fees pay the OPP to close down the highway?
I do not think the OPP should be paid by funds generated from campgrounds or backcountry campers, however I do acknowledge the importance and history of this program – so what’s the most obvious solution?
Charge a fee. It’s pretty simple. We don’t get to camp for free, sooo? We all pay to go backcountry camping and we do not expect it to be free or paid for by other programs which generate income. I don't want to sound negative on the subject, but.. how much for the OPP? Charge people $3. If there are only 1000 attendees, that's $3 grand.. there is no way it should cost more than that for a few OPP to close a road for less than an hour – and if it does, there is a much bigger problem here.. So maybe even $2 bucks is enough.. my point is.. if the program is at risk of closure due to funding, then stop making it free... backcountry fees go up every year, but do the campsites or portages ever improve? Nope. They just need additional moneys to keep in the black – which is business and I get it - but to whine about a free program closing due to finding... hello? stop making it free and start charging. I don't understand how this is so complicated? I would hate to see the program go – but I would also hate to pay even higher fees next year for backcountry camping, to keep a program like this alive. No offense to anyone, but if I wanted to hear the wolves howl, like John said, there are plenty of places to do so – places that we have to pay to access.. so how/why is this any different? Am I completely off the wall here?
That being said, as per Dan’s CBC article, it seems the cancellation is due mainly to the location (or lack thereof) of the wolves, not so much the fees… but I’m sure that’ll be next when the wolves are found.
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Maybe not completely off the wall but a little bit off the edge there Peek!
Actually people are paying for the wolf howls in ways that you don't think about.
The first time I went to a wolf howl I had to pay for a day pass. Arrived at 6 PM, left the park at 11 that night and drove home. But then I was lucky because I lived within driving distance. No wolves to be heard that night.
Keep in mind that not many can do that, mostly they have to do what I tried next.
The second time I took along a g/f and her two kids. Instead of just camping for the weekend, we went in a day early specifically so that we could set up and attend the wolf howl. We were packed and prepared to leave within an hour or so of checking to see if there was going to be a wolf howl that night. The cost for going in a day early - a nights' camping fees. Most all of the attendees were camping in the park. They were either there for an extended weekend so they could attend the wolf howl or were there for a whole week and attending multiple naturalist programs
We heard 2 packs howling that night - absolute extreme ecstasy!!
There's also the logistics of collecting the fees. As it stands right now, it takes a tremendous number of staff to get everyone parked. They stand with their safety vests and wave you in as rapidly as they can. It still takes a couple of hours to get everyone parked. Stopping every vehicle to collect the fee for each person, deciphering the age of the child (exempt under age XX), making change, etc. etc. would just be a total nightmare. IMO it would be impossible to get everyone in, paid, and parked unless you started by noon and then what do you do about facilities for everyone for all those extra hours. Buying tickets in advance still results in a slowdown, do you turn away those without a ticket or do you accept cash on the spot, and you'd have to add in the time and effort to collect, account for and manage a fee structure. With the howl being on an go/no go basis dependant on locating a pack and the weather, advance ticket sales couldn't start until the morning of, another logistic nightmare.
We won't even go in to the problem of extra charges for some naturalist programs but not for others, nor the problem of what to do if no wolves are heard to be howling that night.
IMO, the two branches of the government need to get their butts in the same conference room and hammer out an agreement. They are both being paid from the same tax dollars and should be working co-operatively but then it's not the first time that two government departments can't see eye to eye and work something out.
Last edited by BethNearNorth (9/15/2015 12:26 pm)
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Yeah I hear you Beth.. I was thinking simple..like two bucks a car even.. As for refunds? Nope. You don't get a refund at the zoo if you don't see the elephants cause they were hiding or sleeping, that's a chance you take.. $2 per vehicle wouldn't be anything to cry over, as the highway would've needed to be closed anyway and these fees cover that.
I think you inadvertently over complicated it..
No need for advance tickets.. Or online purchases.. Get a staffer to hit up the dollarrama in Huntsville.. Buy a roll of raffle tickets.. As vehicles arrive for the howl, trade them a raffle ticket to keep in the vehicle. Take the toonies and pay the OPP. (yes, I may have over simplified it..) But is it really any more work than right now anyway? Staffers are directing cars where to park, so they already have direct interactions with them.. Takes two seconds to trade a toonie for a ticket.. No change either.. Call it a donation.. Don't have a toonie? Toss in a 5.. Should have been prepared if you knew you were going to an event that cost a toonie. Sounds hard but it'll get the job done and it'll be paid for by those enjoying the show. Overages? Perfect, toss them in the coffers for other projects.
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Peek wrote:
I would hate to see the program go – but I would also hate to pay even higher fees next year for backcountry camping
Perhaps I am wrong but I'm quite certain that the vast majority of revenue in Algonquin is derived from the campgrounds, the contracted stores(P-store, Opeongo Store, Lake of Two rivers) and cottage/camp/hotel leases. I suspect backcountry fees are a tiny portion of revenues likely not even covering the cost of trail/campsite/portage maintenance which are likely subsidized by the larger group of users I mentioned above. I am a user of both backcountry and front country algonquin and I would hate to see the wolf howl go, but backcountry fees aren't going up as a result of them. Nor will they start charging for them, if it cannot be covered through current revenue it will likely just be cut. I don't know of any other programs in Algonquin that require fees, although they might exist.
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If I'm going to be quoted, please don't misquote me,
I never said backcountry fees are (definitive) paying for any of this. I said I would hate to see those fees increase as a result of this or things alike (speculative).
At the end of the day the problem and solution seem simple - a program cost money to operate (but) money is short (so) perhaps a small fee to cover the costs of operation is all I was suggesting.
It seems crazy (to me) that a lack of funding for a free event would cause cancellation - stop making it free and start making it self-sustainable. I don't think that's off the wall. Heck even if the whole $2 per car idea does not generate 100% of the cost to cover OPP and staff.. at least it helps reduce the funding pressure, right? Who would be opposed to paying two bucks for the chance at hearing a wolf howl? I would'nt – especially if it was saving the program from destruction.
I just don't see anything wrong with paying for a service or attraction.. it's the way the world works.
(edit: changed second word in last sentence in third paragraph from 'would' to 'wouldn't' as originally intended: 'I wouldn't - especially.......')
Last edited by Peek (9/16/2015 7:05 pm)
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Peek you're making some good points and I don't necessarily disagree but here's the thing... the financial burden here (the way I understand it) is not the cost of paying for OPP whenever they run a wolf howl, it's paying the OPP whenever they DON'T run a wolf howl. When they do a howl, under the previous system, it would still cost staff time to carry out the road closure. So whether they're paying their own staff or the OPP there's an expense there. The difference now is that since the OPP demands more advance notice than the park gives itself as to whether or not the wolf howl is a go, the OPP is going to have to be paid even for the wolf howls that get called off -- for example every scheduled wolf howl in the past two years, as per the CBC article. So even if they did charge participants for wolf howls, the last two Augusts' worth of thursdays would have generated zero revenue, but the park would still be paying for OPP coverage.
As to the point about paying for services and that we pay for backcountry camping... yes but that's just it, everyone visiting the park is already paying a fee to be there. Either in the form of a day use permit (fee per vehicle), frontcountry camping permit (fee per campsite) or interior camping permit (fee per person). So once you've paid to visit the park you should get use of the park's facilities and services included. I guess that's not an absolute thing, since there are Experience Algonquin workshops you have to pay for (I guess those are provided by the Friends, not the park, though that's a hazy distinction and the wolf howls could be taken over by the Friends I suppose). So I'm not saying a hard no to Peek's idea. Just pointing out what I see as the issues.
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Peek, I used a direct quote. There was no mis-quote.
I can accept that I possibly read your intention incorrectly, but I never misquoted anything.
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Peek, I used a direct quote. There was no mis-quote.
I can accept that I possibly read your intention incorrectly, but I never misquoted anything.
Context is extremely relevant when quoting so things like shortening sentences and picking a single sentence out of a full paragraph can have a big impact. Just something to be aware of when using a quote in a response.
I read Peek's point to be that if there are cost concerns about running the wolf howls, then those costs should be addressed as directly as possible by the wolf howl events themselves and that he wouldn't want to see other fees be negatively impacted. In that context, the backcountry fees were just an example of something that could be impacted.
I expect that the reality is that backcountry fees fully cover the costs of maintaining backcountry routes at the level they are maintained today. Similarly I expect Beth is right that the wolf howls already pay for themselves indirectly by attracting folks to pay for day passes and overnight camping in the hopes of hearing a wolf.
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Constuction companies, hydro companies, telco companies, etc. are constantly closing roads across ontario without any OPP presence. Heck lollypop holders close down 60 all the time. I imagine all you need is MTO permission and the appropriate training. Sounds like political nonsence to me. Higher ups at the MNR and MTO need to get their heads out of their asses and start communicating is all. Moose Jams and Wolf Howls are PR gold mines for Ontario. Without them APP wouldn't be the world renound destination that it is.
