goneagainjon wrote:

rgcmce wrote:

Let me jump in here.  I'm not going frame a long coherent and logically consistent argument.  I'm just going to make a few observations.

I'm on the cusp of transitioning from my mid 70s to my late 70s.  I'm no longer what you could reasonably call fit.  My capabilities decline enough on a year over year basis that it is essentially impossible for me to meaningfully know what I currently may or not be capable of.  I can no longer plan.  Can I make Narrowbag the first day or will I crap out on the first or second portage?  Impossible to tell.  For me, in my physical condition, any reservation system is an impediment to my enjoyment of the park.  A site specific reservation would make my situation much worse.  All because of my current physical abilities and their decline.

I would much prefer to go back to no reservations whatsoever.

But that's not realistic

Historically, when the crowding became too much they introduced a system whereby each access point had a daily quota of back-country permits to issue -- at first only on holiday weekends.  You had to tell them where you planned on going but that was only so they would know where to send the search team if someone report you missing.

The cries for more control increased so they gave in made a percentage of the daily input quota reserveable (50%?)  The rest of the quota remained first come first serve.

The resultant crowding near the access points became an issue and they introduced a one night limit on camping near access points.  So there is a historic precedent for a two tier system -- controls near the access points but not farther in.

And then the whole system went to hell in a hand basket and they dumped the access quotas and introduced the present system.

In the "old days" you knew nothing of what awaited you.  You knew approximately where portages were but but you had no advance knowledge of campsites.  There were no accessible trip reports and campsites were not marked on the maps.  Little by little more information became available and in the process destroyed whatever was left of the wilderness feeling.  This is why I am not a fan of the PCI database (sorry Barry)

Anyway, compared to how it was in the '60s and '70s, it IS Disneyland.  (But on the other hand back then you could take your outboard motor anywhere.  I think that High Falls on the Nipissing is wilder now than it was then.  But when motors were restricted in the interior, people argued loudly that the physically challenged were being denied their rights.)

So where do I stand? I can live with the present system even though I don't like it.  If they change to a site specific system, I'll cope.  (I'm not fit enough to follow Martin's lead.)  But I expect I will occasionally go off permit as I currently do.  But thoughtfully and it's never led to a conflict.

Some old fart who still gets out there (sort of).

 

 

Love your post, your perspective and sense of history...things change...we learn, we stumble, we grow and we try to get it right...but we don't eschew change...we evolve, we learn, we "cope" ...and sometimes we actually get it right...better that than be a troglodyte and a self-centred angry old man a
nd dinosaur who gives 0 shits about anyone else...or their knees, hips or balance issues ;)

Hey, I have those issues and I get out there anyway and for me, because of those issues the site specific system is a retrograde step.  The uncertainty comes from me and what I can do, not what others do.  Am I an angry old man?  I don't think so but who am I to judge?  But I think I can recognize an angry young man when I see one.
 

goneagainjon wrote:

Lol, oh, I'm not that young...I just chafe at angry old men (who fought in 0 wars) and their sense of entitlement and love of the glory days when men were men and they couldn't give 2 f%$#s about anyone who required reasonable accomodations because of their mobility limitations

Wow, where did that come from?
I didn't really think you were  young, I was just trying to be polite.  You should try it sometime.

Actually, if you keep trolling like this it might have an interesting effect.  I don't think you really want to put Barry in the position of having to to lock his own thread.

 

I'm not sure where you're coming from with this.  I am saying I have mobility issues that are age related and having a site specific reservation system makes it worse for me.  Your view of what is best for people with mobility issues is not universally held.  I am arguing for what is best for my issues. I am sorry if it doesn't accord with your world view.

My two cents -- I'm a mid 30s fit dad with two kids, 3 and 5. I used to trip extensively with 25+ km days as the norm, and for some sick reason it is still my preferred mode of travel when I'm able to escape with tripping friends (Aside: I then wonder why I don't spend more time fishing... It's because I'm moving too much!).

Anyways, once I had kids I realized that things are going to change if I hope to continue backcountry trips with my family. It is completely unreasonable and unfair for me to expect a long-standing wilderness tradition to bend for my new needs and yield the sandy, danger-free sites to me. I know that when I arrive on the lake it is a lottery system, so I plan my trip timing carefully to ensure a high probability that I can get suitable sites on a lake. For example, if I see that Shirley Lake is largely booked up on a weekend, I'm probably not going to get one of the nice sandy sites. I research the hell out of lakes that might be suitable within the park for me to bring my kids, I ask on forums and social media for site recommendations, and I even started going to provincial park campgrounds (gasp!) because they suit the abilities of my very Junior tripping partners (especially in winter). I also started renting cottages more, and checking out other provincial parks to widen my choices.

The fact is, our abilities evolve and at times  degrade throughout our lifetime as they pertain to backcountry tripping,  And when the time comes that my knees are bad, or my tripping partners are crippled, then it's time to call it quits or find other methods of experiencing the wilderness. This might mean campgrounds which are very much accessible. But it's going to hurt, that's for sure.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I will no longer go to Algonquin Park if they go site specific. But much like the expected change in camping fees, I am going to hate it with a passion. And now comes my confession: I am now the a$$hole that books three weeks of camping in the Kawartha Highlands just to get a few dates on a certain lake during high season. And you know what? I have zero shame about it because it's exactly what others are doing. Take a look at Bottle Lake and you'll see it booked straight through to the end of August by mid-February. That's what the "book it kind a campground" wilderness experience being promoted in this thread is going to bring to Algonquin so be prepared.

@Barry

The impetus behind site specific booking and issuing permits base on campsites instead of individuals is not based on some sort of assessment of who uses the APP interior. It has been described by Ontario Parks as a way to align car camping and interior camping policies and procedures. It is an administrative change spurred on by an overarching initiative by the Provincial Government. It is not a change in response to user requests.

It would be nice if APP saw this looming and then tried to take this opportunity to realign their offerings, but I doubt it. Administrative changes like this are spurred on by the need to control costs and revenue. Could you imagine how expensive (and futile) it would be to bring all of the thousands of APP interior campsites up to an improved standard?

Totally seperate of this initiative, and governed by a different mandate, APP may very well come out with a teired system of campsites to specifically address Accessibility to Ontarians with Disabilities (AODA). I foresee the park creating new campsites or re-developing existing campsites on lakes like Cannisbay or Opeongo to ensure that APP and Ontario Parks complies with the AODA Act.

But this has nothing to do with the seperate requirement to change towards campsite bookings. Jon is transparently conflating his need to control outcomes with the admirable goal to provide opportunities. I believe this is a misguided and dangerous approach specifically as it applies to canoe tripping in a park as large as APP.

Last edited by MartinG (2/26/2022 9:47 am)

Perhaps you are right. Or perhaps they did it just to book by site number.

Massassauga switched to site specific bookings and significantly raised their prices. Now when you book online you can see pictures of each site. They come with a metal fire pits, picnic tables, food lockers, some of the sites even have large wooden platforms for tents. I wonder how many of these amenities were coordinated with the move to site specific reservations.

MartinG wrote:

Perhaps you are right. Or perhaps they did it just to book by site number.

Massassauga switched to site specific bookings and significantly raised their prices. Now when you book online you can see pictures of each site. They come with a metal fire pits, picnic tables, food lockers, some of the sites even have large wooden platforms for tents. I wonder how many of these amenities were coordinated with the move to site specific reservations.

They just did this with the recent Killarney changes as well; they've added pictures for each backcountry site. They did a pretty terrible job though, it's usually 2-3 pictures, sometimes blurry, and one of them is just a picture of the thunder box. 

Site specific reservations are a terrible idea in my opinion. There are inherent risks with going into the backcountry regardless of your ability. I often have intended sites in mind but weather conditions, or otherwise, result in a change of plans. I think others who have expressed this same sentiment, including rgcmce (who has said he has mobility issues), agree. Jon is just trying to virtue signal because they feel they speak on behalf of, and have all the answers for, people with mobility issues. Get off your high horse and listen to the people, Jon. If you have concerns about accessibility, use the PCI database and all the other resources, such as Algonquin and Beyond, and make back up plans.

Last edited by SpicyMustard420 (2/27/2022 9:32 am)

rgcmce wrote:

Embracing my inner "troglodyte and a self-centred angry old man", my preferred pronouns are he and him.

 

 
Thanks for clarifying, rgcmce. Updated my post. Can never be too careful these days