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2/02/2020 11:33 pm  #1


newbie questions

Hello,

Thanks for the add.  I've been reading and planning for a long time now and have found this site to be most helpful.  I have tried to track down most all information explained in the past and am trying not to repeat questions that have been asked before so I apologize if I do.

I am planning on bringing a group of 8 or 9 this summer for our fist visit to Algonquin.  We are from Michigan.  I have lots of experience wilderness backpacking around MIchigan, in Isle Royale National Park, and in the Sierra Nevada mountains including quite a few 10+ night unsupported trips.  Three of my sons will be part of our group ages ranging from 9 to 13 and all 3 have experience backpacking and carrying their fair share of gear and food.  My oldest 2 did great last trip and are able to handle 40 lbs 10+ miles if needed.

Some of our group have some canoeing experience but none of us are experts by any means.  We are excited to get into the back country and our first of hopefully multiple trips to Algonquin.  We are up for the challenging of portaging .  It for sure adds layers of complexities to trip planning. 

We are planning our trip for the end of July.  I understand things can get quite busy along the highway 60 corridor in the summer. We are looking for a little more solitude so my initial plans are to pick up rental canoes and other necessary gear at Algonquin Outfitters in Huntsville and then head up to the #29 Kiosk access point to start out.  We have 8 nights planned.  With 8 or 9 of us we are thinking of renting 3, 3 person canoes and getting 2 separate back country permits so we can split up camps and utilize 2 campsites as needed.  I am thinking of some type of loop route incorporating Manitou, North Tea,  Biggar, Three Mile, and maybe a few more lakes in the Kiosk area.  Any tips on good route options would be appreciated!

Some questions I haven't been able to track down answers to yet:

Permitting:  I know I can register online 5 months ahead of our trip for our desired route, pay a deposit of sorts online and then pay the rest at the permitting station when we arrive.  I have played around with the reservation system and it seems easy enough to use. I believe Kiosk has a permitting station, correct? 

Parking:  Are we ok to leave 2 vehicles parked at Kiosk for the duration of of our trip?  Do we need to pay for a vehicle pass?  I see there is a "day use" car fee but are our cars/parking covered in the daily back country camping fees? 

Camping: If we pay for campsites at Kiosk the night we arrive, we don't also need to have back country permits for that day too do we?

Maps: I have used Avenza maps as a digital source for many trips and have already downloaded maps of Algonquin.  I have been using Jeff's maps online and they are really cool and helpful. I want to purchase his printed maps but one is out of stock.  Is that because the unlostify version is hopefully coming out soon?  I also have the canoeing routes map and backpacking map from the Friends of Algonquin Park site. Any other maps I should consider?  I am a map geek for sure.

I am good on the basic gear that is also used backpacking  - tents, packs, bags, pads, food, filters, stoves, etc... We also really like fishing so we will be bringing along rods, reels, tackle, bait, net as well.  Aside from PFDs and Paddles (and of course the canoes) any other canoeing specific gear I should consider bringing?  

It looks like the barrel packs are a commonly used piece of equipment- do you think if we bought along 2 60L barrels we would be good?

I don't normally backpack where fires are allowed too often, but I know we are allowed campfires in Algonquin with dead and downed wood.  I plan on bringing a hatchet, some hand saws, and gloves to harvest wood and work around the fires.  

I think that's it for now.  Thanks for all of your help!

Last edited by ryan72 (2/03/2020 12:02 am)

 

2/03/2020 9:54 am  #2


Re: newbie questions

you pay only once for each night whether you're backcountry or frontcountry, so if you're paying for one night at Kiosk, that's it, you start paying for backcountry when you depart Kiosk.
The "jeff's maps" have nothing to do with Jeff anymore, and haven't been updated or printed for years (lots of people here were stiffed on their orders) Unlostify is a totally different company of which Jeff is a partner, and he's been very busy designing new mapsets, but that takes time unfortunately as he has to totally rebuild his database.
As for the barrels, it's really hard to say because your needs and wants are totally different than others. I've done trips where 2 people totally filled a single barrel, and trips where that barrel held enough for 8 guys for a week, the only way to be sure is to prepack in advance- then you can adjust quantities or # of barrels as needed.
Every permit includes parking for one car for the duration. If you have an extra car on the permit it's about $10. but if you get a second permit for a second site the extra car would go on it.
hope this helps.

 

2/03/2020 11:59 am  #3


Re: newbie questions

Hi Ryan,
great planning!

Kiosk has a permit station, yes.

Canoe routes map from the Friends of Algonquin Park is totally sufficient for navigation in AP.  Lots of people prefer Jeff's map, but you'll have to wait for Unlostify to come with it's own version if you want to purchase a hard copy.

I'm sure you can rent as well as purchase all required gear for your trip from Algonquin Outfitters. On my trip the only canoe-specific items besides those you mentioned are some waterproof bags (large for canoe packs and small for sleeping bags etc.) and a repair kit with different hardware to take care of mechanical damage to your gear (duct tape, multi-tool etc.). And also ropes - at least one for portaging and one for tying the boat.

It's difficult to predict how many barrels or canoe packs your party will require. I think the best way is to pack everything at AO store - then they will provide exactly as many as you need, including harnesses for barrels. Territory you expect to cover includes some lengthy and hilly portages and one shall come properly  equipped to deal with them. (Also, your daily travel distances shall be calculated considering how many trips/carries your party will have to make over each portage, e.g. double-carry is almost thrice as long as single-carry).

The barrel-vs-canoe pack discussion never ends. I personally think that on flatwater trip barrels are good only for food if you are not expecting to hang it from trees. Many will disagree. In any case it will be advisable to waterproof everything you carry, including your packs.
Cheers,
Sergey
 

 

2/03/2020 12:39 pm  #4


Re: newbie questions

thanks for the replies-they are very helpful!

Are the canoe packs a big advantage over standard internal frame backpacking packs?  I am not opposed to renting or buying canoe packs but only if they are much better than what I already have and trust.  

We are hoping to be smart and pack light enough to single carry most of the portages but am not opposed to having to double back if it is safer and a better plan for our group. 

Am I reading right in that I should not even attempt purchase any of Jeff's maps from this site?
http://www.algonquinmap.com/buy.html

what about the chrismar maps?  It won't let me purchase online (the links to the "add to cart" links seem broken.  http://www.chrismar.com/

thanks again!

 

     Thread Starter
 

2/03/2020 12:46 pm  #5


Re: newbie questions

While I'm a fan of Algonquin Outfitters, if I were going to start at Kiosk, I would use Algonquin North ( http://www.algonquinnorth.com/ ).  They can provide you with a canoe right on the beach at Kiosk.  They also have a store / office located the intersection of hwy 17 and hwy 630 (this is where you pay)  While not as large as the AO store at Oxtongue Lake, I expect it will meet your needs.

 

2/03/2020 1:12 pm  #6


Re: newbie questions

With 8 nights you have a lot of options in terms of route selection. Since you want to hit North Tea and the big lakes in that area then I would just start at Access #1 and save about an hour of driving time (assuming you are coming from the south). Also, with 2 cars you can have a DIY shuttle between your starting and exit access points. One suggestion is start at K'mog (#1), make your way towards Erables, down to Big Trout, and exit at Magnetawan (#3). You would be able to get deeper into the interior where the crowds are thinner. Also, with 3 guys per canoe and packing light you should have no problem single carrying, which greatly increases the distance you can travel. The travel times printed on Jeff's Map are an excellent planning tool.

July will likely be hot but I would loose the hatchet and bring along something with a longer handle and just bring one larger saw.

Other things to consider is bringing a lightweight chair, like a Helinox, because it may be tough to find enough decent seats at every camp.

 

2/03/2020 1:25 pm  #7


Re: newbie questions

I have both a pack and a large barrel … I prefer the pack because its a bit easier on portages and easier to stuff places if you need to.  It is possible that food keeps a bit better in the barrel though … not sure.  

One big difference I found between hiking trips and canoe is that you need to build in a day or two for windboud days with the canoe …food for thought,

 

2/03/2020 2:22 pm  #8


Re: newbie questions

ryan72 wrote:

my initial plans are to pick up rental canoes and other necessary gear at Algonquin Outfitters in Huntsville and then head up to the #29 Kiosk access point to start out.

While (I think) you can rent canoes in Huntsville it’s more of a retail store. AO’s Oxtongue and Opeongo store are full blown gear outfitters with dedicated staff and space to organize gear for full outfitting. Another option is Algonquin North Outfitters on the corner of HWY 17 and the Kiosk access road.

ryan72 wrote:

We have 8 nights planned.  With 8 or 9 of us we are thinking of renting 3, 3 person canoes and getting 2 separate back country permits so we can split up camps and utilize 2 campsites as needed.

Good idea. Not all sites are well suited to 8 or 9 people. Not sure how 3 canoes will split up to 2 sites. These sites will not often be right beside each other.

ryan72 wrote:

I believe Kiosk has a permitting station, correct? 

Yes.

ryan72 wrote:

Parking:  Are we ok to leave 2 vehicles parked at Kiosk for the duration of our trip

Parking for all your vehicles is covered by your camping permit.

ryan72 wrote:

I also have the canoeing routes map and backpacking map from the Friends of Algonquin Park site. Any other maps I should consider?

FOAP map is OK at a bare minimum. Unlostify will be awesome when it comes out. In the mean time Backroad Map Books is about the best one in print https://www.backroadmapbooks.com/products/new-algonquin-park-waterproof-map/

ryan72 wrote:

Aside from PFDs and Paddles (and of course the canoes) any other canoeing specific gear I should consider bringing?

Dry bags or barrels. Everything you don’t want to get wet should be in a drybag/or barrel. Whistles for your PFD's (easier than yelling). A sponge for each canoe. Painters to tie up the canoes.  

ryan72 wrote:

It looks like the barrel packs are a commonly used piece of equipment- do you think if we bought along 2 60L barrels we would be good?

You don’t have to use barrels on a flat water trip. Sometimes it’s nice for food. I don’t hang a food barrel. But I do hang a food bag. While a barrel is not bear proof it is tamper resistant. It should keep your food safe from most critters. Keep your site meticulously clean. Tie the barrel to a tree. Put your pots and pans on top. If a bear tries to get at it the pots will fall off and wake you up. Go defend your food. 2 60l food barrels for 8 days for 9 people might be tight.

ryan72 wrote:

I don't normally backpack where fires are allowed too often, but I know we are allowed campfires in Algonquin with dead and downed wood. I plan on bringing a hatchet, some hand saws, and gloves to harvest wood and work around the fires.

 
Saws are good. Stout knives for batoning wood are good. A larger axe with a 28”+ handle is ok but not really necessary. Leave the hatchet at home. Unnecessary and dangerous.

ryan72 wrote:

Are the canoe packs a big advantage over standard internal frame backpacking packs?  I am not opposed to renting or buying canoe packs but only if they are much better than what I already have and trust.

Yes. Canoe packs are made to fit in canoes. (Luckily) 60l barrels also fit very well side by side in canoes. Bigger framed back packs do not. Sounds silly but it can be very frustrating trying jam everything in your canoe. Square peg, round hole etc.

Build in a layover day 1 out of 5 or so. Sometimes you just can’t travel by canoe.

Manitou is great for Small Mouth.

Never heard anyone say much good about Biggar. Maybe choose a different lake.

This is a personal thing and everyone has an opinion. My advice is to start from Brent. Brent is awesome. Then I would do Cedar, Catfish. Perley, Burntroot, Nipissing River, Cedar. I tell everyone new to Algonquin to do this route. It touches on everything that is Algonquin. Beautiful big lakes, Isolated remote lakes, history and artifacts, two very different rivers, Good wildlife and fishing (though fishing is tough in July). It can be done in 4-5 days. But you will have a great time doing it in 8.

DO NOT BUY JEFF’s MAPS

 

2/03/2020 2:42 pm  #9


Re: newbie questions

I had the same route idea as Martin. Only thing I would add is you boys seem like you know what you're doing... you may want a bit of a bigger loop for 8 days... Cedar>Catfish>Hogan>La Muir>Burnroot>Whiskey Jack> Long Marsh> Cedar 

Some awesome sites on those lakes... Just a thought..

That route in late July with fingers crossed for good weather you won't wanna leave AP.. 


We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it.
 - George Washington Sears
 

2/03/2020 3:03 pm  #10


Re: newbie questions

ryan72 wrote:

Are the canoe packs a big advantage over standard internal frame backpacking packs?  I am not opposed to renting or buying canoe packs but only if they are much better than what I already have and trust.

Canoe packs are available in bigger sizes than your regular hiking packs, like 100-120L in volume. It can be advantageous for single-carry, as long as you load them reasonably. They also usually have less pockets, and accordingly easier to waterproof.
 

 

2/03/2020 4:33 pm  #11


Re: newbie questions

While I agree with Martin and Shawn with respect to starting at Brent and then going upstream on the Petawawa to Catfish, you might find that first day a little challenging if you are still working out how to pack and portage efficiently.

If you start at Brent, you would be back to dealing with Algonquin Outfitters as they have a "store" there.

 

2/03/2020 4:57 pm  #12


Re: newbie questions

rgcmce wrote:

If you start at Brent, you would be back to dealing with Algonquin Outfitters as they have a "store" there.

It is a very cool store! If you catch the Octogenarian in the store in a good mood, he may even tell you where to find a train hiding in the woods.

That first day is daunting. You may question what you've gotten yourself into. Power through. This route is magic.
 

 

2/03/2020 6:03 pm  #13


Re: newbie questions

Of course the OP is capable of making his own mind, but since he might not be aware of  specifics of the suggested route, here's my 2 cents: I'm not so sure about advisability of powering a novice group through a large lake and hilly portage on the very first day of their trip. Carrying canoes is much different for carrying hiking packs and is a challenge to be aware of.  It might easily ruin experience for some in the party. On the other hand Kiosk to Biggar allows for more gradually getting into portaging. I haven't been to Biggar in about 10 years, but unless it changed much to the worse I'd gladly go there again.

 

2/03/2020 7:28 pm  #14


Re: newbie questions

Maybe my perception is way off but I don’t think if they start from Cedar camping there the first night, a days travel to Catfish is that bad.

The OPs group has experience travelling in the backcountry.

Get up early on Cedar and take your time.  If everyone is in good shape it isn’t a days travel that should be a huge problem.

Ryan I would recommend if you camp on Cedar night one and the lake is calm when you start out camp on the south shore. If not camp on the north shore and cross early in the morning.  Cedar can be a problem sometimes with waves.

Kiosk to Mouse and around out through Manitou is a great route too though.

Last edited by ShawnD (2/03/2020 7:29 pm)


We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it.
 - George Washington Sears
 

2/03/2020 9:02 pm  #15


Re: newbie questions

Kiosk is a great access point. The trip in and around Manitou has a lot to offer. All I'm doing is suggesting an alternative I am enthusiastic about.

If you decide to loop out of Brent it will involve crossing Cedar Lake. This can be very scary if it is windy. We have North Westerley prevailing winds in this part of Ontario and Cedar lake funnels those winds. So, plan to do it in the morning or evening when the wind is down. Then cross your fingers there is no wind. If the wind is up, you are probably not crossing Cedar.

After the crossing there is a bit of river travel and some portages around beautiful water falls until you get to Stacks Rapids. The Stacks Rapids port is about a mile and a half. A bit more than half of that is up hill. Here in Ontario everything is flat. Put some elevation gain into a portage and it gets a reputation. This portage is called Unicorn Hill. Any portage with a name can't be good. But, you have done unsupported 10 day back packing trips in the Sierras. This will be a bump in a road for you. Granted a bump while carrying a ton of stuff. So pace yourself, leap frog your gear, don't need to be a hero and do it all in one go. Cedar to Catfish is not a long distance. You have all day, take your time. 

I think this isn't really that big a big deal. Some people go from Cedar to Burntroot in a day. 

 

2/03/2020 10:33 pm  #16


Re: newbie questions

thanks for all the feedback and great ideas.  I will consider all the route suggestions and gear ideas you all offered.  Very nice of you and keep them coming!

I did see Unicorn Hill as a potential cause of concern and knowing about the potential dangerous crossing of Cedar is good to know.  I find myself pushing my sons to their limit occasionally on the trail and don't know if I want to do that day 1 as novices to portaging.  But, it looks like an amazing route and is very intriguing so I'll keep looking into it.   We are in no way a speedy group but I am confident in our ability to cover some ground and embrace the fun of a days hard work in the woods.  I will keep in mind that a down day may be needed depending on the weather.

One factor in going with Algonquin Outfitters is that they discount their rates 25% on 8+ day rentals.  With 3 canoes and other gear I'm sure we will rent-that adds up to significant amount.  I don't mind picking up canoes in one spot and driving them to our access point.  The 7 or 8 hours of a drive from metro Detroit isn't that bad after in relation to the 12 or so hours I am used to going up to Isle Royale (and then sitting on a slow boat for 3 or 4 more).  

     Thread Starter
 

2/04/2020 7:50 am  #17


Re: newbie questions

ryan72 wrote:

One factor in going with Algonquin Outfitters is that they discount their rates 25% on 8+ day rentals.  With 3 canoes and other gear I'm sure we will rent-that adds up to significant amount.  I don't mind picking up canoes in one spot and driving them to our access point.  The 7 or 8 hours of a drive from metro Detroit isn't that bad after in relation to the 12 or so hours I am used to going up to Isle Royale (and then sitting on a slow boat for 3 or 4 more).  

Most outfitters discount their rentals for multi-day trips, so do not restrict your choice to AO on this issue alone. And outfitters local to your access point will probably deliver canoes right to the water edge for free or a small fee, which is helpful. You will have your hands full with a big group as it is.
 

 

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