You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?

2/06/2020 2:47 pm  #18


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

I emailed Ontario Parks inquiring the logic behind these changes and explaining the impact it will have on smaller groups. Here's their reply (with some redaction). It's the bolded, underlined part that concerns me as I don't recall car camping have relevance to Temagami (but I'm not as well-travelled as others). It sounds more like a decision based on system implementation convenience than any customer experience considerations.

Hi *********,

Thank you for your feedback. Ontario Parks is making this change in order to simplify the booking process by streamlining the backcountry fee structure and making it consistent with our car camping fee model.

We appreciate your feedback, and will share it with our reservation team.

Regards,

Ontario Parks

 

2/06/2020 3:43 pm  #19


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

EddyTurn wrote:

This argument might make sense if there was maintenance, which in Temagami is not the case. I do not see any rhyme or reason to triple a price for almost non-existent services in an under-used area with almost non-existing enforcement. Even if  there are more rangers than bigfoot in Temagami, this difference is negligible.

You are right Eddy.  The change to Temagami is the strangest part of this, considering more maintenance is done by interior campers and FOT than ON Parks. 

Zemantics wrote:

Thank you for your feedback. Ontario Parks is making this change in order to simplify the booking process by streamlining the backcountry fee structure and making it consistent with our car camping fee model.

I haven't done any camping in the area, but is there any drive in camping in Massassauga?

Last edited by TripperMike (2/06/2020 4:06 pm)

 

2/06/2020 6:49 pm  #20


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

TripperMike wrote:

I haven't done any camping in the area, but is there any drive in camping in Massassauga?

 
No, but one of the access points where you pick up your permits is Oastler Lake PP where there is car camping.

 

2/06/2020 9:08 pm  #21


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

That’s worrisome that they’re equating backcountry  with car camping. Those are very different experiences with very different levels of service and amenities offered.

I wonder if they’d ever consider an annual fee as an option, similar to the seasonal parking pass? I’m sure they can find a sweet spot where it’s attractive enough that people would buy it, but there’d be enough people who don’t end up visiting enough after buying it to make it economical. I’d be happy to go that route if it were offered (and while I’m dreaming, if they could create some kind of frequent trippers program that would let you sign a waiver and bypass all the “the site you have selected is too far” nonsense on the online booking site, that’s be great).

 

2/07/2020 7:49 am  #22


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

John Connelly wrote:

As Algonquin is still a bargain ... maybe some less fortunate will be forced to spend more time paddling the Gonq .....what a shame to have to make such sacrifices .

Sacrifices are not shameful. Requiring and cheering people to make them is shameful.
 

 

2/08/2020 6:55 am  #23


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

"the cost of fuel to get there" is not the major cost for many! I live near the GTA and can get to Temagami and back with 2 tanks or about $120, and If I take my wife's SUV, it's about $50. Under the new system a week will cost me over $200 in fees!
Hardly insignificant, especially if you're on CPP and only getting $1168 a month 

Last edited by scoutergriz (2/08/2020 6:56 am)

 

2/08/2020 10:39 pm  #24


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

scoutergriz wrote:

"the cost of fuel to get there" is not the major cost for many! I live near the GTA and can get to Temagami and back with 2 tanks or about $120, and If I take my wife's SUV, it's about $50. Under the new system a week will cost me over $200 in fees!
Hardly insignificant, especially if you're on CPP and only getting $1168 a month 

 
I remember in the past that part of the mandate of Ontario Parks was to make outdoor adventures accessible to the people and at a low cost. Think of a scene where a lone paddler is reconnecting with the Temagami wilderness but now you’ll be thinking that he’s paying well over $300 to go on a week long trip. 17 years ago the cost was zero.

Now it seems that the “reservations team” has aligned the backcountry experience with car camping so that they could deal with a simplified booking process. Are these the same guys that removed functionality from the previous reservation system? Did they not also advertise that the permit system would be automated but later it turned out that in parks like Algonquin people will still be inconvenienced by having to visit a permit office rather than being able to get an early start in the morning.

 

2/10/2020 7:23 am  #25


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

John Connelly wrote:

That would be Temagami Provincial Park fees . Right ?
Good to be clear on such things , as many are planning our forthcoming paddles in Ontario .
 

Are you TRYING to pick a fight???
I said VERY CLEARLY "Temagami and back"!!!
I'm done with you! you've twisted EVERY single  comment I've made!

 

 

2/19/2020 10:12 am  #26


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

This topic is up over at myccr.com as well and one of the responses from Ontario Parks posted there has the below line. Tells me its only a matter of time till AP adopts it. 

"Ontario Parks is moving from the current per-person-per-night fee to a flat-per-campsite fee model for backcountry camping. By doing so we are streamlining the backcountry fee structure across the province and making it consistent with our car camping fee model."

Last edited by ShawnD (2/19/2020 10:12 am)


We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it.
 - George Washington Sears
 

2/19/2020 1:08 pm  #27


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

I recall seeing that same thing posted here somewhere. It appears it’s just a matter of time. Fine for me right now as when I go, it’s our family of 4. While younger and childless my wife and and I used to go a lot and we hope to in the future so this will suck. While younger still I used to solo a lot and would like to in the future. I see this as a major impediment.

 

2/19/2020 1:18 pm  #28


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

Ah yes - punishing the soloist/tandem group to streamline the process.

Think about it logically - at $43/night (for example) versus the $125 Illegally occupy campsite fine.. guess which route a lot of soloists/tandems might end up taking. This will decrease revenues instead of increase, given that you can't catch and fine everyone. It would be wise for them to just keep collecting $12.43 per person per night, or simply $12.43 per campsite per night.  I suppose it all depends on what the set amount per campsite per night is. lol could you imagine paying $43/night for a backcountry site? Even with the current per person per night fee structure, the value doesn't begin until 4 or more people are in your group.

 

2/19/2020 1:31 pm  #29


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

Peek wrote:

Ah yes - punishing the soloist/tandem group to streamline the process.

Think about it logically - at $43/night (for example) versus the $125 Illegally occupy campsite fine.. guess which route a lot of soloists/tandems might end up taking. This will decrease revenues instead of increase, given that you can't catch and fine everyone. It would be wise for them to just keep collecting $12.43 per person per night, or simply $12.43 per campsite per night.  I suppose it all depends on what the set amount per campsite per night is. lol could you imagine paying $43/night for a backcountry site? Even with the current per person per night fee structure, the value doesn't begin until 4 or more people are in your group.

It would become a nightmare. Off permit people everywhere. Check the reservation system thinking there's no one else booked on given lakes only to show up and see several others there. Low number of campsite lakes fully occupied so no where to camp...
More conflicts and arguments over occupancy. Exactly the kind of experience I'm looking for when I head into the backcountry.  All for the low low price of 3- 4 times what a soloist pays right now. 

Sheer Genius !
 


We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it.
 - George Washington Sears
 

2/23/2020 11:28 am  #30


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

Guess i need more camping friends now.

 

2/28/2020 4:39 pm  #31


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

Knock-on effect for outfitters I guess, too.

I trip 2-4 times a year in Algonquin,3-8 nights each time. I go solo. Since there is no immediate plan to apply the flat-fee-per-site model to Algonquin Park yet (Temagami and Mississauga only this year), there will be no change to my behaviour in 2020.

However, if this rolls out across the province, that would reduce my trips to Algonquin to 1 per year (with a group). I spend $100 to over $200 on each solo trip renting a canoe, so about $200 to well over $1000 a year depending on my work schedule. Algonquin Outfitters will no longer see that money.  It's too bad. I know it's small potatoes, but it's something.

     Thread Starter
 

2/28/2020 6:22 pm  #32


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

Methye wrote:

Knock-on effect for outfitters I guess, too.

I trip 2-4 times a year in Algonquin,3-8 nights each time. I go solo. Since there is no immediate plan to apply the flat-fee-per-site model to Algonquin Park yet (Temagami and Mississauga only this year), there will be no change to my behaviour in 2020.

However, if this rolls out across the province, that would reduce my trips to Algonquin to 1 per year (with a group). I spend $100 to over $200 on each solo trip renting a canoe, so about $200 to well over $1000 a year depending on my work schedule. Algonquin Outfitters will no longer see that money.  It's too bad. I know it's small potatoes, but it's something.

 
It would add up I think. Outfitters solo canoe fleets would shrink accordingly. If I were managing an outfitter I would be asking the Ministry for their plans before I went ordering any more solo boats.


We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it.
 - George Washington Sears
 

3/01/2020 1:11 am  #33


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

ShawnD wrote:

It would become a nightmare. Off permit people everywhere. Check the reservation system thinking there's no one else booked on given lakes only to show up and see several others there.
 

 
Of course, with the new system even that isn’t possible.

 

3/01/2020 11:30 am  #34


Re: Flat rate per site coming soon?

nvm wrote:

ShawnD wrote:

It would become a nightmare. Off permit people everywhere. Check the reservation system thinking there's no one else booked on given lakes only to show up and see several others there.
 

 
Of course, with the new system even that isn’t possible.

Imagine if it was always flat rate per site, and you were never able to see the # of reservations on a given lake. Then imagine if they announced "We're making some changes! Camping fees will now be variable depending on how many people are in your group, so fees are fair regardless of how many people are in your trip. Also when you make a reservation online, you'll now be able to see how many campsites are on your desired lakes, and how many of those campsites are still available for reservation." We'd be losing our minds with how amazing those things are. Just shows how backwards everything is right now.


Trip Reports & Campsite Pictures
www.algonquinbeyond.com
 

Board footera

LNT Canada is a national non-profit organization dedicated to promoting responsible outdoor recreation through education, research and partnerships.