Algonquin Adventures / Park Fees...future

**Posted by Peek** 3/31/2021 2:43 pm

scoutergriz wrote:
know for a fact that most groups end up spread over a km or more, and KNOW most people don't realize they're a group until they get to the site.

This is pretty consistent with my experience as well.

**Posted by BB** 6/15/2021 7:49 am

So it appears I got an actual non-form letter reply from Jeff Turek about an idea to help combat site scalping.

Dear Brandon,

Thanks so much for taking the time to share this idea, I will review and discuss it with my policy team at the ministry.

Thanks again and take good care,

Jeff Yurek, MPP

Elgin-Middlesex-London

**Posted by ChristineCanoes** 11/13/2021 11:12 am

I would encourage everyone to keep writing MPPs coming up to the election.

I think outside of commercial outfitters running trips the majority of people will pay more with the new model.

It would make far more sense to increase the per person fee by a few dollars and charge for every vehicle (rather than 1 free car and a fee for each additional vehicle).

I have emailed the cons to tell them they will not get my vote if they go to flat fees for the parks. Period.

**Posted by Peek** 11/14/2021 1:31 pm

ChristineCanoes wrote:
It would make far more sense to increase the per person fee by a few dollars and charge for every vehicle (rather than 1 free car and a fee for each additional vehicle).

I have emailed the cons to tell them they will not get my vote if they go to flat fees for the parks. Period.

I was with you on the few bucks more per night, (say, bring it up to $15 per person, per night, including tax) but having to pay extra to park your car, when the only reasonable way to get to Algonquin is with a vehicle, is where you lost me. That's just as 'gouge-worthy' as the new price structure.

Ultimately, I think this will cost the park more than it will generate. Most people I've spoken to about this are of the attitude 'ill take my chances with a fine'. When the fine is just over the cost of a 3 night trip (based on $45/night), I think a lot of people will opt for the fine via taking their chances. Plenty of access points outside the park boundary where there would be no way to prove where you went, unless caught in the act.

My attitude is simple - I'll play by the rules so long as they make sense and are reasonable. Once logic and reason are tossed out the window in exchange for gouging and record profits, I'll play by my own rules. It's the outdoors were talking about here.

**Posted by ChristineCanoes** 11/14/2021 2:23 pm

One of the problems that emerged when they started charging for extra vehicles is that now people going in larger groups are booking on multiple permits which means lakes look full when they are not.

They are going to increase fees. That seems like a given. So the question is what is reasonable and fair?

I think charging per vehicle and per person is the fairest approach. I would also be okay with increasing per person fees a bit more and not charging per vehicle too.

Either way if people object to flat fees they need to be emailing their MPPs.

The only people regularly going out in groups of 5+ are outfitters so I can’t see how anyone would see this flat fee thing as a good thing 🤷🏻‍♀️

**Posted by ChristineCanoes** 11/14/2021 2:26 pm

I also think anyone who doesn’t realize they are going to increase the policing of permits is mistaken. They appear to have already started this in Temagami.

And everyone saying they fine is only x dollars. I’m not so sure. Is it only x dollars or is each night breaking the rule a separate fine (like it is for bottles)?

I also don’t think we want to stop supporting the parks. If we want backcountry camping to exist we need to support it. I think we also need to fight for fair access 🤷🏻‍♀️

I encourage people to write those letters.

**Posted by ChristineCanoes** 11/14/2021 2:28 pm

I won’t break the rules. I may canoe elsewhere more often though which I don’t think the parks care about. I don’t think they really want the business of soloists 🤷🏻‍♀️

**Posted by Peek** 11/14/2021 3:41 pm

ChristineCanoes wrote:
I also think anyone who doesn’t realize they are going to increase the policing of permits is mistaken. They appear to have already started this in Temagami.

And everyone saying they fine is only x dollars. I’m not so sure. Is it only x dollars or is each night breaking the rule a separate fine (like it is for bottles)?

I also don’t think we want to stop supporting the parks. If we want backcountry camping to exist we need to support it. I think we also need to fight for fair access 🤷🏻‍♀️

I encourage people to write those letters.

I mean, even if they triple policing, your odds are still very good. In my 113 trips to Algonquin I've been permit checked twice. Heck even if the efforts were quadrupoled that means, on average, 7 permit checks per 100 trips.

I'm all about supporting the park for obvious reasons, but when push comes to shove - well, I've said enough already. I've got my plan, as I'm sure other do too.

I will heed your advice and get a letter out, as the most desirable outcome is a balance between the current structure and the proposed structure. I don't wanna go the illegitimate route, but by the same token, I'm not paying $180 for a 4 night trip. That just absolutely isn't happening in any reality.

**Posted by ChristineCanoes** 11/14/2021 4:31 pm

Yes; this government is highly influenced by public opinion. So yes, writing our MPPs, the MPP with the portfolio and the Premier is important. Being clear that it will impact your vote.

At this time, they seem to be planning on going ahead with this so writing now (even if we wrote a few months ago) asking that this not be done in Algonquin and that the pilots be reversed is IMHO critical.

And FWIW, in Temagami they have cleaning crews checking permits. I’ve never had my permit checked in Algonquin but I have met plenty of cleaning crews so it may become pretty normal to have your permit checked on most trips if this goes through.

We need to advocate for continued equity in accessing the parks. Flat fee backcountry camping makes no sense and if we believe that, we need to keep advocating.

My thoughts for what they are worth.

**Posted by swedish pimple** 11/14/2021 6:47 pm

does anyone know how many names are on the petition against this price gouge,,

**Posted by ChristineCanoes** 11/14/2021 7:01 pm

I don’t but I do think letter writing has a bigger influence on this government than petitions. So sign the petition and keep writing letters 😊

**Posted by ChristineCanoes** 11/14/2021 7:15 pm

It looks like over 10,000 people. I’m reposting the links that were in the other thread:

Make your voice heard:

Petition: Petition · Back Country Camping Fee Increases in Ontario · Change.org

Greg Wake, operations and development office, Ontario Parks. 705 927- 2861 greg.wake@ontario.ca

The Minister in Charge. Jeff Yurek, Minister of the Environment, Conservation and Parks. 416-314-6790 jeff.yurek@pc.ola.org

Also email the Premier’s Office and your MPP.

**Posted by MartinG** 11/15/2021 1:13 pm

Jeff Yurek is gone. http://www.infogo.gov.on.ca/infogo/home.html#orgProfile/708/en

Maybe I'm jaded but contacting the minister and premier is going to do nothing. Ford has clearly outlined his position on parks and the environment. Natural resources are a resource to be exploited for financial gain and to create jobs. Nothing more.

**Posted by ChristineCanoes** 11/15/2021 4:30 pm

Without delving into politics, I would say that our Government is influenced by public opinion. So I stand by the idea that writing the 3 levels (Premier, Minister in charge and your MPP) is the most impactful thing we can do.

I encourage everyone to write if this is an issue that matters to them.

**Posted by BB** 11/23/2021 10:22 am

Here is the info for the New Minister. Hon. David Piccini | Minister | 416-314-6790 | %20minister.mecp@ontario.ca