Algonquin Adventures / Park Fees...future

**Posted by RCSpartan** 3/03/2021 11:31 am

Thanks Peek. I see that any intent behind a message has been discounted so that we can squabble over who holds the highest proficiency in linguistics. I'll engage my legal counsel draft future forum comments and I recommend everyone else do the same to avoid similar confusion.

**Posted by Peek** 3/03/2021 11:32 am

meh. You were being a smartass and you were called out for it. Just like your post above.

**Posted by RCSpartan** 3/03/2021 11:40 am

I was trying to diffuse a situation that got out of hand but whatever. Call me out with Google all you want.
This happens every March and gets worse as we get closer to ice out it seems. The most benign comments seem to get taken out of context for whatever reason.

**Posted by Peek** 3/03/2021 11:45 am

I was trying to imply that choice of words is very important in a discussion. I don't think thats unreasonable.

**Posted by RCSpartan** 3/03/2021 11:56 am

Sure but there's levels of reasonableness that we should all be able to accept. If a word was unintentionally used out of context someone should not be ostracized for it, especially in a social forum like this. I truly believe everyone here share the same values when it comes to our love for the park and we should all be able to express our opinions in the best way we can without fear of it getting picked apart for reasons other than the intent of the message.

Anyways I'm done. I'll concede and let you have the last word.

**Posted by BB** 3/03/2021 11:59 am

This may be the most fair solution all around. Although Gov't being Gov't that is not like something that will be implemented. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't voice our concerns or ideas with them. With enough of a dust up something could change.

BarryB wrote:
I'm thinking that ideally the park could start with their "same-fee-occupancy" rate, consider it as representative of a typical group of four in two canoes, adjust it percentages downward for smaller groups, and upward for larger groups. That way the cost of the varying "wear-and-tear" factor would be more fairly reflected in the rates being charged!

**Posted by BB** 3/03/2021 12:01 pm

This.

I'm not taking sides. I can understand how PA's choice of words could have been misinterpreted and pointed that out. I have every faith that he did not intend to insult anyone with what was said.

So back to the matter at hand...Fees!

RCSpartan wrote:
Sure but there's levels of reasonableness that we should all be able to accept. If a word was unintentionally used out of context someone should not be ostracized for it, especially in a social forum like this. I truly believe everyone here share the same values when it comes to our love for the park and we should all be able to express our opinions in the best way we can without fear of it getting picked apart for reasons other than the intent of the message.

Anyways I'm done. I'll concede and let you have the last word.

**Posted by Steve E** 3/03/2021 12:20 pm

Guys can we please cease the squabbling? As BB stated above, "back to the matter at hands...Fees!"

Thanks!

**Posted by MartinG** 3/03/2021 1:08 pm

Steve E wrote:
Guys can we please cease the squabbling? As BB stated above, "back to the matter at hands...Fees!"

Thanks!

Who do you think you are, the police!!

**Posted by Steve E** 3/03/2021 3:32 pm

MartinG wrote:
Steve E wrote:
Guys can we please cease the squabbling? As BB stated above, "back to the matter at hands...Fees!"

Thanks!
Who do you think you are, the police!!

Lol...shhhhh!

**Posted by rgcmce** 3/03/2021 6:11 pm

I am often somewhat amused by the banter and smart a** comments on this and other forums. But I must say Martin, if I had been drinking a cup of coffee when I read your last comment, coffee would have been spraying out my nose and perhaps my ears as well.

**Posted by Steve E** 3/03/2021 7:20 pm

rgcmce wrote:
I am often somewhat amused by the banter and smart a** comments on this and other forums. But I must say Martin, if I had been drinking a cup of coffee when I read your last comment, coffee would have been spraying out my nose and perhaps my ears as well.

There’s an inside joke there...I’m in law enforcement

**Posted by yellowcanoe** 3/03/2021 7:56 pm

TripperMike wrote:
I really don't understand why they wouldn't raise the price per person by a few bucks vs. the flat rate if this was really about revenue.

Well they created a problem last year when they started charging for extra vehicles just like they do if you are car camping. The extra vehicle fee can be avoided by dividing up your party and making multiple bookings. The side effect of that is that sites will be booked that won't actually be used. Going to a flat campsite fee eliminates this problem as any group arriving in one more than vehicle is better off to get one campsite permit and pay the extra vehicle fees.

**Posted by ShawnD** 3/04/2021 9:26 am

Ok let’s talk about fees.

A 7-day trip Soloist vs Group of 9
Current
$87.01 vs $783.09 ( $87.01 each)
Parks overall revenue if both groups book.
$870.10
Flat rate
$322.35 vs $322.35 ($35.82 each)
Parks overall revenue if both groups book.
$644.70
Now I don’t know what the average group size is now or what it will become under a new fee structure but here are a few reasonable assumptions.

The soloists will get pushed out
Per person fees for large groups goes way down increasing the likelihood of more large groups
Large groups are 6-9 times say more likely to leave trash etc behind. Maybe even more as the soloist is more likely to follow LNT IMO
Groups of 6-9 fill up the thunderbox 6-9 times faster than the soloist.
So, the soloist gets to heavily and I mean heavily subsidize the fees for groups with the added benefit of cleaning up the garbage for less considerate groups.

What does basic common sense tell us will happen to AP over time with those forces at play?

Plus, I am far from convinced it would mean more revenue for the park.

The comparison to front country fees doesn’t hold water either imo.

The solo front country camper is extremely rare. Hence flat rate fees here don’t really put undue pressure on anyone

The front country is 100% full a lot of the time. so yes that would cost the Park money if a solo camper took a spot from a group.

BUT…The backcountry in AP is Never 100% full, so soloists are taking up sites that would be empty anyway. The empty sites are sunk costs. The soloist is just filling an empty seat on a plane.

Flat rate fees in AP are a bad decision on many levels.

Last edited by ShawnD (3/04/2021 11:09 am)

**Posted by TripperMike** 3/04/2021 10:28 am

ShawnD wrote:
The comparison to front country fees doesn’t hold water either imo.

I can't remember who pointed this out earlier in the thread, but it does appear they are trying to "streamline" the overall process by modelling it after front country and car camping bookings. Obviously it doesn't make any sense considering front country comes with amenities car campers often want and will utilize, but it is what it is. Will we start to see steel fire pits and picnic tables in APP similar to the Mass now?

Also Shawn, your math here shows this clearly isn't about driving revenue on the booking side - but somehow someone has shown this will cut ops costs, which it most definitely won't

The real problem here is that decisions like this are probably being made by someone(s) who a) probably doesn't give a shit and b) doesn't have to pay these fees to use the BC (or doesn't use the BC at all anyway).

Last edited by TripperMike (3/04/2021 10:29 am)

**Posted by MooseWhizzer Dave** 3/04/2021 10:35 am

Steve E. "There’s an inside joke there...I’m in law enforcement "

Hold it there right there. I always thought you were a professional photographer. Feeling disillusioned, because now I have to recognize that you honed your talent for photography to an incredible level as...an avocation?

**Posted by Jdbonney** 3/04/2021 10:48 am

I do like the picnic tables and fire rings of the mass but I am very much against this change even if it does result in picnic tables and fire rings in Algonquin.

Honestly, whoever is making these decisions at Ontario parks has no clue what’s going on.

I don’t even solo anymore, it’s me and the family so this will actually be relatively neutral for me but I can see how stupid it is. I’m unsure of the average group sizes. Anecdotally I would say the vast majority of groups are 4 or less and with every group below 4 they’ll probably make a bit more than previously.