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I love it being there and the option to look, if I want.
And where is the line drawn? I have personally visited more places in Algonquin due to seeing a trip log from Drew, a video from Evan or one of Peeks ruin or cabin tours than I have sites due to PCI. And should we ask Jeff not to put travel times, interesting attractions, etc. on his new maps?
This site was always a great place to share Algonquin experiences to those interested. For me, PCI is just an expansion of that and I am grateful for it.
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In reading my comments, it is important to remember that I am an old curmudgeon, somewhat set in my ways.
I would like to thank Martin for raising concerns about this topic. It's an interesting topic of discussion even though in the end, we all know how it will end. The PCI will continue to expand, probably supporting and facilitating the inevitable move to the reservation of specific campsites and thus completely transforming the park from what was once an "accessible wilderness" to something akin to a theme park devoted to a pseudo wilderness experience -- somewhat wilder than the ravines and parks of Toronto but perhaps not by much.
The problem is that the transition from wilderness to "civilized" is essentially a one way street; there is no going back. In principal, the park could be "rewilded" but that could only occur by excluding all human visitation for a very extended period of time and we all know that is not going to happen. Every campsite and portage improvement is a step in this transformation as is every new piece of information that is made publicly available. The argument that you can just not avail yourself of that information and thus retain more of a wilderness feel is nonsense. The damaging effect of that information on a particular site has been done whether you are aware of that information or not.
Forty five years ago (or thereabouts) Diana and I "discovered" the waterslide. Certainly many people had visited it before us but it was still completely unknown to us. How could it have been known to us? As far as we are aware it was not in any guidebooks (which were few and far between), it was not marked on any maps, it was not on an established canoe route. It was just out there, hidden in the bush at the end of a dead-end bay. But such a "discovery" could not be recreated today. Even if someone deliberately shielded themselves from all available sources of information and somehow managed to stumble upon it, they would not find a beautiful secluded water flow falling from rocky basin to rocky basin in the bush, but rather they would discover wall to wall sunbathers and thrill seekers. Much of the beauty of the waterslide has been forever lost because it is too well known and over visited.
LNT has been mentioned earlier in this thread (but not elaborated on). Is the PCI compatible with LNT? I'm not convinced. By identifying the "best" campsites you are concentrating the traffic there with the inevitable deterioration of those sites. As an example -- actually, I'm not sure whether it is an example or not since I have never consulted the PCI nor do I intend to even in the preparation of this diatribe -- consider the island campsite in Laurel Lake. That used to be a beautiful campsite but it has been destroyed by being too well known and thus overused. I believe that lots of people still consider it a beautiful campsite; all I can say is you should have seen it when there still was ground cover and undergrowth rather than the bare dirt that characterizes it now. (This raises another discussion as to whether it is best to concentrate the damage or spread it out evenly.}
So all and all, I think the PCI is negative and I can't support it, but I also sadly believe that this sort of thing is inevitable and if you don't want the theme park experience, you need to go farther north. Unfortunately, my age is working against me to take that advice.
An aside to Peek: anything you can do to stomp on the blatant self promotion that one sees on r/algonquin would be great.
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MartinG wrote:
I unintentionally opened a can of worms. I'm not against the PCI, or Cody's site, or Drew's site (love Drew's writing!). The campsite reviews just rarely offer much value to me. ScouterGriz, Marko, Gord, and SS... on the other hand find them useful. Those examples show what a great service it provides.
If you don't like them, don't read them...
For others they offer another level of planning and safety, after all Algonquin is a managed, recreational park for ALL people, not just hardcore paddlers- that includes newbies, young families, disabled paddlers, and seniors- many of whom would be unable to experience backwoods paddling without resources like this. Removing information specifically to make it harder for others strikes me as elitism, and contrary to the goals of making Algonquin specifically, and OP in general, accessible to all. We already have enough bureaucratic stumbling blocks in park use, we shouldn't be adding more.
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Unfortunately APP is becoming way to much of a theme park for me as well... and it is all happening way too fast! Obviouly we cannot put all the blame on the PCI index but I think it is a small factor for sure... in the end the biggest problem is 100% the internet. This information is way to easy to find these days and it is very unfortunate.
I only started tripping in APP around 12 years ago, and boy have things changed in that time.
I have found my own private spots, bush whacks to get to trout holes etc...
Just two springs ago me and the wife went and fished a 'secret' trout hole, near the north end of the park somewhere... the day after we got back I randomly had YouTube playing and up came a video of some dude fishing in the exact same spot, he publically said EXACTLY where he was, how he got there and how to catch trout. I go back the following spring and there is garbage, trees cut in the area.. pathetic.
My spring trip this year is really stressing me out, I do the same week every single year and NEVER see a soul, this year looking at the reservation system I will be fighting for a campsite and guaranteed all my little honey holes will be fished out by the time I get there.. I think this will be my last Spring trip into the park and moving forward the only time I will camp in the backcountry of APP is when I go with others just looking for a good time, not seclusion or a wilderness experience.
Long story short the way I look at it at this point there are way to many websites and YouTube channels making it way to easy to find the best campsite, or fishing hole.. There is competition to have the most viewers which some value higher than keeping places a secret.
Rant Over. 
Last edited by ATVenture (5/04/2023 5:36 am)
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rgcmce, I hate to burst your bubble, but Algonquin has never been true wilderness, it was developed to be a lumber preserve in the first place to protect the timber from farmer's clearcutting it for farmland, and has been managed since it's inception, and in fact, the waterslides (and dozens of other points of interest) are actually clearly marked on my father's patrol maps from 1956...
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rgcmce, I hate to burst your bubble, but Algonquin has never been true wilderness, it was developed to be a lumber preserve in the first place to protect the timber from farmer's clearcutting it for farmland, and has been managed since it's inception, and in fact, the waterslides (and dozens of other points of interest) are actually clearly marked on my father's patrol maps from 1956...
I never said that it was. I used the term "accessible wilderness" in quotation marks; it's not my term.
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rgcmce, I hate to burst your bubble, but Algonquin has never been true wilderness, it was developed to be a lumber preserve in the first place to protect the timber from farmer's clearcutting it for farmland, and has been managed since it's inception, and in fact, the waterslides (and dozens of other points of interest) are actually clearly marked on my father's patrol maps from 1956...
Sorry, I was in a hurry and didn't fully read your comment before responding. I didn't say that the water slide was not known, but it was not widely known. It was certainly not known to us and I think we were pretty familiar with the available information of that time (but not inside information). Indeed, I have learned subsequently (via the internet) that those ponds were a popular eel harvesting area 100 years ago. (Interestingly, I learned that from the NHIC website before they restricted access to their databases in order to protect these special areas. Unfortunately restricting that information is the proverbial locking of the barn door after the horse was stolen.) Anyway, I don't know what your father's patrol map of 1956 was, but the available canoe route map of that era was Algonquin map 47a. My copy is dated 1958 and doesn't indicate the water slide -- indeed, it doesn't even include any campsites. Even the 1985 map (~10 years before the internet) does not indicate the water slide even though some other points of interest are noted.
My bubble is intact.
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I agree that I try to limit what I post online but also can't judge or complain what others do. People posted a campsite on reddit and facebook of my favourite lake with only one site and now it's booked up solid. Those pages have many more views than people think.
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There's a few things I like about the availability of reports. One is the few situations I've had where I've run across people who were almost dangerously unprepared. I consider myself pretty confident with emergencies but I really don't want to spoil my trip by having to rescue someone. If they had better information, they'd know things like a 3K portage being harder than a 3k hike.
I also appreciate having an idea about site quality when paddling large lakes so I can better plan for where/when I want to be.
The other thing I like about the info available (not necessarily campsites) is it makes it easier to convince family that my solo trips aren't that crazy. Look guys, other people did this and survived!
I too have the concerns about making things too easy for inconsiderate campers but I also like the idea of more people learning to enjoy the wilderness. It's also the way things are and I try really hard not to stress about things I can't change.
One interesting solution is something I had to go through to backpack in Grosse Morne NF. Before getting your backcountry permits, you had to watch a video and pass a test that included LNT principles and navigation. The ranger would also use the time to check if your gear was realistic. Can't see it being practical in Algonquin but it would do a good job of eliminating people unprepared for the beauty and challenges of nature.
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Bob, ironically, it was your site and before that Tom Thompson that provided me with the information that brought me to the east side of the park. The West Wind among others let me know there was a side of APP that appealed to me - rock, pine trees, sand, water. Somewhere along the way I'm sure I would have also seen a photo of the Barron Canyon. And from that start I decided I wanted to bring my family over to experience the area. As I am not as resilient as Marko in terms of what I could manage with 3 small children, I researched. Your Bush Log and Notes became my winter reading and also the posts on Tom and the older maps. Your pictures of High Falls sold me on an excursion there and the spot remains a highlight on trips through Sand Lake Gate over a decade later. You're right about the crowds but try visiting at sunrise or sunset in September, you will still have things to yourself : )
While not specifically a PCI, your resources, and arguably Tom's paintings, are a source of information - just on a spectrum in terms of detail. Maybe the locals used to complain that Tom's art work was bringing too many people to Smoke and Canoe lakes back in the day. At what point in the spectrum does the information go from being a good thing to a bad thing? I am speaking here specifically in the context of of sharing park, wilderness, and camping information of course and really don't want to steer this conversation elsewhere.
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Sorry, I was in a hurry and didn't fully read your comment before responding. I didn't say that the water slide was not known, but it was not widely known. It was certainly not known to us and I think we were pretty familiar with the available information of that time (but not inside information). Indeed, I have learned subsequently (via the internet) that those ponds were a popular eel harvesting area 100 years ago. (Interestingly, I learned that from the NHIC website before they restricted access to their databases in order to protect these special areas. Unfortunately restricting that information is the proverbial locking of the barn door after the horse was stolen.) Anyway, I don't know what your father's patrol map of 1956 was, but the available canoe route map of that era was Algonquin map 47a. My copy is dated 1958 and doesn't indicate the water slide -- indeed, it doesn't even include any campsites. Even the 1985 map (~10 years before the internet) does not indicate the water slide even though some other points of interest are noted.
My bubble is intact.
those maps are the ones rangers carried on their patrols, and had many informal notations of possible choke points, points of interest, or places where there were issues, and had notations from other rangers added as required to help new rangers to the area. just because it wasn't printed on the "official" maps didn't mean they weren't well known.
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This thread is spicy. I am of the opinion that having the option to research sites ahead of time is handy. If you don't like it, don't use it.
Like time, the internet will march on.
Hope everyone has their spring trips planned / already underway!
Cheers to another season all!
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Yeah I am all for it! I like the PCI. I personally prefer to watch all the videos I can and do my own research. I also take a look at the lakes of interest and the PCI to get an idea of what to expect. The more I can consume in the off season the better!! I enjoy all the work everybody does, keep the videos, trip reports, site reports, photos, ruins, questions, answers, and all the info flowing Spread the love of nature that keeps us all coming back. Be a good example for the future generations so they will follow in our footsteps!!
Headed out on our first trip in a couple weeks! Very happy to get back out and enjoy the park and relax! Hope everybody is doing the same or has plans in the works!
