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The border closure caused me to take a trip to the Adirondacks rather than Algonquin last weekend, While I was killing time in the campsite, I noted some of the differences I observed between the two locations, and thought folks here might find it interesting so I fleshed it out.
By the way, they are not kidding about speed limits once you are off the highway. I saw a lot of cars pulled over.
These comparisons are based on my very, very limited exposure to ADK - one trip plus reading. My trip was in the St. Regis canoeing area, which is the closest comparable area in ADK to APP, although much smaller. St. Regis area is just one area of ADK. Canoeing opportunities abound in the ADK region, but lots of cottages, etc. elsewhere, and maybe not so frequently set up for canoe camping as maybe canoe visiting.
OK, here's my comparison. Some of these are just for fun, most of these are genuine observations. I know that some AA posters have visited both locations extensively, I'm sure they'll have something to add.
Location:
St. Regis is 44.3 N, 74.1 W.
APP is 45.8 N, 78.4 W
Comments: Spring might be slightly earlier and Winter just a little later in ADK, but it is mountainous, so night comes quicker in the campsite.
Size & stats
St. Regis. 18,400 acres total, 1,621 acres of water. 50 ponds (lakes), ranging from .5 acres to 388 acres. 70 primitive tent sites, and some additional sites that are driveable. Fishing, hunting, trapping, all legal within the area. Two mountains in St. Regis, “St. Regis” – 2,874 feet, “Long Pond Mountain” – 2,530 feet. 26 miles of hiking trails, but they count portage trails in that. No motorized boats. In St. Regis every lake is called a pond, for no discernible reason.
APP - 1,891,208 acres total. 1,500+ lakes, 1,900 campsites (not sure how many of those are on canoe routes compared to car-camp sites or jump-off sites). Fishing permitted, hunting in selected areas, trapping on registered traplines. Highest point in Algonquin is “Peak 564”, on the 2nd loop of the Western Uplands Trail near Tern Lake. 1,850 feet. (portage opportunity???)
Comments: The ADK region is 6 million acres. 2.6 million owned by New York State, 3.4 million privately owned. 105 towns and villages. 46 high peaks to climb. Mt. Marcy is the highest at 5,344 feet. (pack a lunch). Briefly put ADK is a state park in upstate New York that is comprised of both public and private land. APP is a park, there is very little private land ownership, it is managed with designated areas to suit multiple outdoor recreations.
Reservation methods:
ADK - No reservations. If no official campsite is available, you can camp 150’ away from water, road, structure. You are on your own for a firepit and a honey pot. (You would think you’d notice evidence of camping outside of sites all over the place, but you don’t.) By the way, there are some ADK regions and some camping areas that DO require reservations.
APP - Reservation System. Generally ensures that you will have a site on a particular lake. Camping only authorized on designated sites.
Comments: Depends how adventurous and flexible you are. I am not so flexible as to want to have a campsite that lacks a thunderbox. To me that's a deal-breaker. Advantage APP. I must say, however, it was freeing to be able to just arrive, without concerns about my reservation dates, checking in, making sure I made a certain lake on a certain date, etc. I pulled up in the parking lot of my intended departure point, put the boat in the water, and paddled. That felt great.
Route Selection:
St. Regis - most are “down and back” or point A to point B. Few obvious loop routes. Outfitters will pick-up A-to-B travelers.
APP - In addition to “down and back” and Point A to Point B routes, there are lots of canoe loop routes.
Comments: I found it frustrating to have limited loop route selections.
Visitor usage
St. Regis - Primary usage I observed was base-camping and day-tripping (but I was there on a weekend). Canoe-tripping with daily travel is a bit less common.
APP - Primary usage seems to be canoe-tripping with daily travel, but there is also interest and opportunity for base-camping or day-tripping.
Comments: My opinion, this difference relates to 1) the reservation system ("I found a site!!", 2) available canoe-tripping routes, 3) the dramatic size difference between St. Regis and APP, 4) no fees in St. Regis, just throw the boat in the water.
Campsites:
St. Regis - Clean, multi-tent sites. Primitive sites do not always have a thunderbox. Few sites have significant rocky outcroppings at waters’ edge. From the water, some sites are very difficult to spot (maps are very good though). The markers are about the size of the palm of your hand. Campsite “openings” are very small, almost hidden. The flora at the waters’ edge is largely undisturbed. My site was one of the cleanest I have ever seen in terms of garbage, etc.
APP - Clean, multi-tent sites. Nearly all designated sites have thunderbox. From the water, sites are fairly easy to spot from distance, with orange signage about the size of a sheet of paper. Frequently the site openings at the water are fairly broad, generally due to sites being placed at rocky outcroppings.
Comments: Terrain is more mountainous in ADK than APP, which is sometimes seen in the elevation change from water access point to campsite and from campsite to thunderbox.
Portages:
St. Regis - Marked by white signs, visible at distance. The few I visited were smooth trails with some up and down, occasionally an unpleasant root stairway feature. The region is mountainous, but the portages seem to follow fairly level ground (based on topographical map). Access from water generally sand/soil/small rock. No distinction made on maps between regular and low maintenance portages.
APP - Marked by bright yellow signs, Visible from distance. Portages highly variable, some very smooth trails, some rocky and rooty. Most have rock/root features that require focus. Access from water varies, frequently including large rock features that impact egress. Distinction is made between regular and low maintenance portages.
Comments: Trails up mountains in ADK are a different story. Those are smooth, well-maintained trails, with horror shows from time to time as you increase elevation and burst blood vessels in your head. In my limited experience: APP portages, on average, are more challenging.
Anectdotal note on St. Regis portages. I saw two young men resting by a fishing canoe at the end of a short portage. I overheard them discuss the difficulty of a 1,300 meter portage they had completed. Two days later I walked that portage, and found it smooth and well-maintained, with only one difficult feature. To me, it 70% of the difficulty level of Daisy-Casey. On Day 4, while loading my car, I heard a constant, growing, gravel-scraping sound several hundred feet behind me. It was these two young men dragging their indestructible heavy-plastic fishing canoe down the dirt access road to their car. That would make a 1,300 meter portage difficult.
Mice getting into your car while you are in camp, chewing up paper and pooping all over the place.
St. Regis - Yes.
APP - No.
Comments: Advantage APP.
Wilderness Feel:
St. Regis - a paddle-or-walk wilderness area. The only cabins are on the access points that border this area. In general, road access and human presence is apparent. Roughly a mile behind my site was an access road and an outfitter. One night I heard a car alarm going off. Two nights I heard firecrackers/fireworks. You can get away from this to a degree by going toward the central area of St. Regis, but overall the sensation of wilderness isolation is fleeting, whether it is from fighter jets doing exercises from nearby Fort Drum, commercial air traffic, ranger aircraft, or car alarms in the middle of the night. Some of the access lakes have cabins and allow powerboats.
APP - In some areas, access roads are apparent, but effort has been made to maintain the wilderness feel of the park in that respect. It is possible to hear road noise from various locations in the park, but it is not difficult to get away from that and experience the outdoors as a faraway place. Once in a while commercial or ranger air traffic is evident.
Comments: APP has the clear advantage here.
Thunderbox:
St. Regis - Nicest thunderbox I have ever had the pleasure of experiencing on Long Pond Site 15. Clean, distant from site, remarkably scentless, rock solid resting upon two pieces of 2” x 6”, and stabilized by rocks.
APP - I have had good and bad experiences in APP, mostly good, but I can think of none that were as leveled out and well-installed than the one at Long Pond Site 15 in ADK.
Comments: Seriously, the design is the same, but ADK thunderboxes are painted with a red paint/stain, presumably to avoid rot.
Flora and Fauna:
St. Regis - Flora is a mix of coniferous and deciduous. Fauna includes a lot of small critters, deer and bear. There are moose, but very few, and there are bobcats you’ll never see. +/- 400 moose in all of ADK.
APP - Flora is a mix of coniferous and deciduous. Fauna includes a lot of small critters, deer, bear wolves, and moose, plus bobcats and Lynx you’ll never see. +/- 2,655 moose in APP. Moose are much more predominant in APP.
Comments: Bird varieties very similar between the two locations. Loons, Eagles, and Osprey occur in both. The loons near me needed singing lessons from their northern brethren.
Fishing:
Unlostify Maps have not reached ADK, so I can’t compare! 
Rock:
St. Regis - there are outcroppings, but seldom seen from the water, and much more apparent in mountain areas.
APP - the Canadian Shield is very much in evidence.
Comments: Without getting all geologist here - both are Precambrian Shield aka Canadian Shield, but you see it
more along the waters' edge in APP.
The local boat of choice:
St. Regis - Placid Works. I saw a bunch of these. They all seem to have soft seats molded to the hull, and most people use kayak paddles.
APP - Swift. I wish I saw more of these near Buffalo, because I’d like to get a used Osprey, Keewaydin 15 or Prospector, in any event with a sliding seat.
Comments: My Nova Craft was like a foreign object. A park ranger gave it quite a once-over in the parking lot.
Firewood
St. Regis - In abundance near the campsite
APP - Can be difficult to find late season.
Comments: ADK wins this category hands down, in spite of so much deadfall being Birch, the anti-campfire wood.
Overall - I prefer APP for canoe-camping. It is kind of a no-contest situation to me, but for a change of pace, the opportunity to paddle amongst mountains, or to include a mountain hike while on a canoe trip, or just to appreciate the visual difference in topography and geography, I would never discourage somebody from visiting ADK in the St. Regis area. I did not include any photos here, but the leaves were just about at peak, and it was just lovely. The view from the top of the mountain was like an undulating carpet of Fall colors. The closest view to that I've had in APP was from the visitor center lookout area, which I am guessing has about half the elevation.
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MooseWhizzer Dave wrote:
The border closure caused me to take a trip to the Adirondacks rather than Algonquin last weekend, While I was killing time in the campsite, I noted some of the differences I observed between the two locations, and thought folks here might find it interesting so I fleshed it out.
By the way, they are not kidding about speed limits once you are off the highway. I saw a lot of cars pulled over.
These comparisons are based on my very, very limited exposure to ADK - one trip plus reading. My trip was in the St. Regis canoeing area, which is the closest comparable area in ADK to APP, although much smaller. St. Regis area is just one area of ADK. Canoeing opportunities abound in the ADK region, but lots of cottages, etc. elsewhere, and maybe not so frequently set up for canoe camping as maybe canoe visiting.
OK, here's my comparison. Some of these are just for fun, most of these are genuine observations. I know that some AA posters have visited both locations extensively, I'm sure they'll have something to add.
Location:
St. Regis is 44.3 N, 74.1 W.
APP is 45.8 N, 78.4 W
Comments: Spring might be slightly earlier and Winter just a little later in ADK, but it is mountainous, so night comes quicker in the campsite.
Size & stats
St. Regis. 18,400 acres total, 1,621 acres of water. 50 ponds (lakes), ranging from .5 acres to 388 acres. 70 primitive tent sites, and some additional sites that are driveable. Fishing, hunting, trapping, all legal within the area. Two mountains in St. Regis, “St. Regis” – 2,874 feet, “Long Pond Mountain” – 2,530 feet. 26 miles of hiking trails, but they count portage trails in that. No motorized boats. In St. Regis every lake is called a pond, for no discernible reason.
APP - 1,891,208 acres total. 1,500+ lakes, 1,900 campsites (not sure how many of those are on canoe routes compared to car-camp sites or jump-off sites). Fishing permitted, hunting in selected areas, trapping on registered traplines. Highest point in Algonquin is “Peak 564”, on the 2nd loop of the Western Uplands Trail near Tern Lake. 1,850 feet. (portage opportunity???)
Comments: The ADK region is 6 million acres. 2.6 million owned by New York State, 3.4 million privately owned. 105 towns and villages. 46 high peaks to climb. Mt. Marcy is the highest at 5,344 feet. (pack a lunch). Briefly put ADK is a state park in upstate New York that is comprised of both public and private land. APP is a park, there is very little private land ownership, it is managed with designated areas to suit multiple outdoor recreations.
Reservation methods:
ADK - No reservations. If no official campsite is available, you can camp 150’ away from water, road, structure. You are on your own for a firepit and a honey pot. (You would think you’d notice evidence of camping outside of sites all over the place, but you don’t.) By the way, there are some ADK regions and some camping areas that DO require reservations.
APP - Reservation System. Generally ensures that you will have a site on a particular lake. Camping only authorized on designated sites.
Comments: Depends how adventurous and flexible you are. I am not so flexible as to want to have a campsite that lacks a thunderbox. To me that's a deal-breaker. Advantage APP. I must say, however, it was freeing to be able to just arrive, without concerns about my reservation dates, checking in, making sure I made a certain lake on a certain date, etc. I pulled up in the parking lot of my intended departure point, put the boat in the water, and paddled. That felt great.
Route Selection:
St. Regis - most are “down and back” or point A to point B. Few obvious loop routes. Outfitters will pick-up A-to-B travelers.
APP - In addition to “down and back” and Point A to Point B routes, there are lots of canoe loop routes.
Comments: I found it frustrating to have limited loop route selections.
Visitor usage
St. Regis - Primary usage I observed was base-camping and day-tripping (but I was there on a weekend). Canoe-tripping with daily travel is a bit less common.
APP - Primary usage seems to be canoe-tripping with daily travel, but there is also interest and opportunity for base-camping or day-tripping.
Comments: My opinion, this difference relates to 1) the reservation system ("I found a site!!", 2) available canoe-tripping routes, 3) the dramatic size difference between St. Regis and APP, 4) no fees in St. Regis, just throw the boat in the water.
Campsites:
St. Regis - Clean, multi-tent sites. Primitive sites do not always have a thunderbox. Few sites have significant rocky outcroppings at waters’ edge. From the water, some sites are very difficult to spot (maps are very good though). The markers are about the size of the palm of your hand. Campsite “openings” are very small, almost hidden. The flora at the waters’ edge is largely undisturbed. My site was one of the cleanest I have ever seen in terms of garbage, etc.
APP - Clean, multi-tent sites. Nearly all designated sites have thunderbox. From the water, sites are fairly easy to spot from distance, with orange signage about the size of a sheet of paper. Frequently the site openings at the water are fairly broad, generally due to sites being placed at rocky outcroppings.
Comments: Terrain is more mountainous in ADK than APP, which is sometimes seen in the elevation change from water access point to campsite and from campsite to thunderbox.
Portages:
St. Regis - Marked by white signs, visible at distance. The few I visited were smooth trails with some up and down, occasionally an unpleasant root stairway feature. The region is mountainous, but the portages seem to follow fairly level ground (based on topographical map). Access from water generally sand/soil/small rock. No distinction made on maps between regular and low maintenance portages.
APP - Marked by bright yellow signs, Visible from distance. Portages highly variable, some very smooth trails, some rocky and rooty. Most have rock/root features that require focus. Access from water varies, frequently including large rock features that impact egress. Distinction is made between regular and low maintenance portages.
Comments: Trails up mountains in ADK are a different story. Those are smooth, well-maintained trails, with horror shows from time to time as you increase elevation and burst blood vessels in your head. In my limited experience: APP portages, on average, are more challenging.
Anectdotal note on St. Regis portages. I saw two young men resting by a fishing canoe at the end of a short portage. I overheard them discuss the difficulty of a 1,300 meter portage they had completed. Two days later I walked that portage, and found it smooth and well-maintained, with only one difficult feature. To me, it 70% of the difficulty level of Daisy-Casey. On Day 4, while loading my car, I heard a constant, growing, gravel-scraping sound several hundred feet behind me. It was these two young men dragging their indestructible heavy-plastic fishing canoe down the dirt access road to their car. That would make a 1,300 meter portage difficult.
Mice getting into your car while you are in camp, chewing up paper and pooping all over the place.
St. Regis - Yes.
APP - No.
Comments: Advantage APP.
Wilderness Feel:
St. Regis - a paddle-or-walk wilderness area. The only cabins are on the access points that border this area. In general, road access and human presence is apparent. Roughly a mile behind my site was an access road and an outfitter. One night I heard a car alarm going off. Two nights I heard firecrackers/fireworks. You can get away from this to a degree by going toward the central area of St. Regis, but overall the sensation of wilderness isolation is fleeting, whether it is from fighter jets doing exercises from nearby Fort Drum, commercial air traffic, ranger aircraft, or car alarms in the middle of the night. Some of the access lakes have cabins and allow powerboats.
APP - In some areas, access roads are apparent, but effort has been made to maintain the wilderness feel of the park in that respect. It is possible to hear road noise from various locations in the park, but it is not difficult to get away from that and experience the outdoors as a faraway place. Once in a while commercial or ranger air traffic is evident.
Comments: APP has the clear advantage here.
Thunderbox:
St. Regis - Nicest thunderbox I have ever had the pleasure of experiencing on Long Pond Site 15. Clean, distant from site, remarkably scentless, rock solid resting upon two pieces of 2” x 6”, and stabilized by rocks.
APP - I have had good and bad experiences in APP, mostly good, but I can think of none that were as leveled out and well-installed than the one at Long Pond Site 15 in ADK.
Comments: Seriously, the design is the same, but ADK thunderboxes are painted with a red paint/stain, presumably to avoid rot.
Flora and Fauna:
St. Regis - Flora is a mix of coniferous and deciduous. Fauna includes a lot of small critters, deer and bear. There are moose, but very few, and there are bobcats you’ll never see. +/- 400 moose in all of ADK.
APP - Flora is a mix of coniferous and deciduous. Fauna includes a lot of small critters, deer, bear wolves, and moose, plus bobcats and Lynx you’ll never see. +/- 2,655 moose in APP. Moose are much more predominant in APP.
Comments: Bird varieties very similar between the two locations. Loons, Eagles, and Osprey occur in both. The loons near me needed singing lessons from their northern brethren.
Fishing:
Unlostify Maps have not reached ADK, so I can’t compare!
Rock:
St. Regis - there are outcroppings, but seldom seen from the water, and much more apparent in mountain areas.
APP - the Canadian Shield is very much in evidence.
Comments: Without getting all geologist here - both are Precambrian Shield aka Canadian Shield, but you see it
more along the waters' edge in APP.
The local boat of choice:
St. Regis - Placid Works. I saw a bunch of these. They all seem to have soft seats molded to the hull, and most people use kayak paddles.
APP - Swift. I wish I saw more of these near Buffalo, because I’d like to get a used Osprey, Keewaydin 15 or Prospector, in any event with a sliding seat.
Comments: My Nova Craft was like a foreign object. A park ranger gave it quite a once-over in the parking lot.
Firewood
St. Regis - In abundance near the campsite
APP - Can be difficult to find late season.
Comments: ADK wins this category hands down, in spite of so much deadfall being Birch, the anti-campfire wood.
Overall - I prefer APP for canoe-camping. It is kind of a no-contest situation to me, but for a change of pace, the opportunity to paddle amongst mountains, or to include a mountain hike while on a canoe trip, or just to appreciate the visual difference in topography and geography, I would never discourage somebody from visiting ADK in the St. Regis area. I did not include any photos here, but the leaves were just about at peak, and it was just lovely. The view from the top of the mountain was like an undulating carpet of Fall colors. The closest view to that I've had in APP was from the visitor center lookout area, which I am guessing has about half the elevation.
A couple random comments:
Despite being lower in latitude, the ADKs are generally higher in elevation than Algonquin. The result is the weather is similar, if not marginally cooler in the ADKs. Comparing Saranac Lake weather data to Huntsville backs this up. Mind you APP is higher than Huntsville, so that would make up a lot of the difference.
For solitude, there are much better areas in the ADKs than the SRCA, but many are better hiked than paddled. This summer I saw a surprising number of people at Laurel Lake out of the Brent Access... I've seen way less people in the ADK (i.e. none), with far less effort on past trips. I think it's partly the Covid effect. SRCA probably had the same thing going on.
Outside of developed campgrounds, I'm not aware of any permitted areas in the ADK backcountry... Unless you're talking about boat access campgrounds. The Essex Chain of Lakes had permits when the state first assumed ownership, but I think they lifted that.
For boats, I see a lot of solo Hornbecks in the ADK. They're cheaper than the Placid boats. Everyone double paddles.
As I said in another thread, APP is definitely better for paddling. The ADKs fits somewhere between Algonquin and the Rockies, in that it's not as good as APP for paddling or the Rockies for hiking mountains, but you can do a mix of both and have a great time. Glad you had fun though. If the border doesn't open soon, hopefully other Americans can follow your lead!
My experience with ADK is limited to 2 trips this year to William Whitney wilderness (WWW), which is about 30,00 acres (combined with Round lake wilderness). This area differs from most of Adirondacks as much as Big Trout differs from Canoe lake: no cottages and no motor boats. My comments on ADK FWIW:
Route Selection: Most of ADK is akin to Canoe lake, not Big Trout. Also, there's abundance of parking spots that makes it difficult to get a portage or two away from the crowd. But if there's a portage you are likely to have it to yourself - traffic between the lakes is almost non-existent. Local outfitters currently are reluctant, to say the least, to shuttle travelers due to Covid-19 - I tried hard to find anyone willing to do it in WWW - no one will.
Campsites: all that I've seen were in pristine condition. Many sites are hidden from the water, some of them tucked pretty far into the woods. In some areas it is allowed to camp anywhere 150’ away from the water &c., in others it is not.
Mice: this is really big issue - one can't be sure in what condition he will find his car on return from a trip. Squirrels are even worse. There are also resident mice on all camp sites.
Reservations: absence of reservation system created big problem this year when the park was overrun with visitors and it was nearly impossible to find a vacant site on more popular lakes on weekends.
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Getting locked out at the border and going on a paddling-only trip in the ADKs is like not getting reservations at the steakhouse and going to an Italian restaurant instead.
Sure, you can get a steak at the Italian restaurant, but you'd be better off getting the veal parm!
Last edited by JoeScmoe (10/19/2020 8:37 pm)
Sure, you can get a steak at the Italian restaurant, but you'd be better off getting the veal parm!
Still beats staying hungry for those allergic to veal.
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Just when I thought 2020 had hit the bottom of the barrel, I learn that some people can be allergic to meat. When I turn the clock ahead November 1 I might just turn it two months ahead.
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Sure, you can get a steak at the Italian restaurant, but you'd be better off getting the veal parm!
Still beats staying hungry for those allergic to veal.
No Osso Buco either?
Just when I thought 2020 had hit the bottom of the barrel, I learn that some people can be allergic to meat. When I turn the clock ahead November 1 I might just turn it two months ahead.
Would be nice, won't it? But then, I bet, we'll woke up to more of the same.
Osso buco is molto sopravvalutato. I'd rather have trout with risotto on crown land than a medium rear next to some weirdos running country music on their lowdspeakers on McIntosh.
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