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None of these situations have actually happened to me, but they've always crossed my mind and I'm wondering what would you guys do in these situations?
1. You're camping on a lake with 1 site and obviously only 1 reservation, but when you get there you see it's already occupied.
2. You're camping on a lake with 2 sites, but they only reserve 1. You know which of the 2 sites you want, but when you get there you see it's already occupied.
3. You want to camp on a specific site which is in very close proximity to another site (for example 2 sites on an island), but when you get there one of them is already occupied. Would you still take the other site?
My answers...
1. If it was early in the day I'd probably kick them off but if it was later I'd probably offer to share the site.
2. I'd ask them to move to the other site regardless of what time of day it was.
3. This ones a bit trickier since it depends on the size of the lake and how busy it is, but I'd still probably camp on the other site. I don't mind being in close proximity if it's a site I specifically want, and I'm extremely quiet/clean/courteous so they wouldn't even know I was there.
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The difficulty is that you can't count on it being a clean situation, meaning, you don't know for sure somebody is going off permit and knowingly grabbing the site. So of course you've got to talk to them to assess the situation relative to injury, if they got caught up in weather, had equipment issues, etc., but I'm sure you are talking about the situation where somebody is knowingly and thoughtlessly acting, hoping you never show up. So for me:
1 - Chances are there are not a lot of options in the area that are reasonable to get to for anybody, and that this is happening at a time of day when that matters. So I'm pulling out the permit, and maybe offering to share the site, for the one night anyway. Not ideal, but chances are it would be a lot of work for either part to "go sleep somewhere else". If it were early in the day, you could probably get the site, but later on, I think the best you would realistically do is to get them to agree to shove off the next day if you were base-camping there.
2 - David Lake is an example. One site is pretty ho-hum, the other is a pretty nice island site. In this case, you were promised a campsite, and you got a campsite, so even though there's an interloper you kinda gotta take what's there. That's my thought anyway.
3 - Sure. Then I hope they leave first......
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Show your permit that you have access to the campsite. If they refuse to leave, come to an agreeable solution to avoid any hostilities that might occur. After all, you could be far from any help and if you are solo, then the odds against you are not good should they wish to stay.. Pause for thought! Campers not knowing or caring about the rules spoil it for a lot of us. As an example, over my 50 years of canoeing, I have never arranged for a permit on a lake with only 1 or 2 sites. I like to camp on big lakes with lots of campsites. Such, none of these situations have ever happened to me. It all has to do with the planning on camping on lakes/rivers with many campsites.
Last edited by boknows (8/23/2017 4:28 pm)
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11 years ago, when I started in the interior of Algonquin, I would probably have been really put out and quite angry about finding someone on my properly reserved site. However, my trip in May 2017 really changed my perspective. I was backpacking through the cold & rain of the first week of May; and the WUT was closed shortly after I entered. Due to flooding, strong currents, a very leaky tent and hypothermia, I only stayed on the correct campsite, one night out of 5 nights. I had built in a day of rest on day 4, and this allowed me to hike on day 4 and catch up to where I was supposed to be. However, more rain, a dusting of snow, and more hypothermia, combined with a very leaky tent, meant I couldn't make it all the way to the right lake on night 5. Hiking the WUT trail at night, in the rain, in an incredibly weakened state would have been beyond foolhardy. So, I opted to stop for safety. I made it out of the bush on schedule and took a month to recover physically. I will forever more be sympathetic to any traveller (on land or water) who needs to share my campsite due to illness, injury or mishap.
Perhaps my experience can help others inform their attitudes for the betterment of all of us, in the Park.
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Would likely do as mentioned, but it would also depend on the location/type of site. For example if it was a destination lake with only one portage in and out, like St Francis, I would be pissed as the people would be knowingly and obviously stealing the site. On a river or series of small lakes and portages with no other sites near by I would be much more understanding, because maybe they just did not make their distance for the day.
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dontgroandaddy wrote:
The difficulty is that you can't count on it being a clean situation, meaning, you don't know for sure somebody is going off permit and knowingly grabbing the site. So of course you've got to talk to them to assess the situation relative to injury, if they got caught up in weather, had equipment issues, etc., but I'm sure you are talking about the situation where somebody is knowingly and thoughtlessly acting, hoping you never show up. So for me:
1 - Chances are there are not a lot of options in the area that are reasonable to get to for anybody, and that this is happening at a time of day when that matters. So I'm pulling out the permit, and maybe offering to share the site, for the one night anyway. Not ideal, but chances are it would be a lot of work for either part to "go sleep somewhere else". If it were early in the day, you could probably get the site, but later on, I think the best you would realistically do is to get them to agree to shove off the next day if you were base-camping there.
2 - David Lake is an example. One site is pretty ho-hum, the other is a pretty nice island site. In this case, you were promised a campsite, and you got a campsite, so even though there's an interloper you kinda gotta take what's there. That's my thought anyway.
3 - Sure. Then I hope they leave first......
Yeah I meant for squatters, not people who were forced to camp off permit - I assume most of us would have some sympathy in those situations
I get what you mean for #2, but I'd be pretty upset if I was forced to camp on the other site because of people camping off permit. Again if it were emergency situations though it would be different
Show your permit that you have access to the campsite. If they refuse to leave, come to an agreeable solution to avoid any hostilities that might occur. After all, you could be far from any help and if you are solo, then the odds against you are not good should they wish to stay.. Pause for thought! Campers not knowing or caring about the rules spoil it for a lot of us. As an example, over my 50 years of canoeing, I have never arranged for a permit on a lake with only 1 or 2 sites. I like to camp on big lakes with lots of campsites. Such, none of these situations have ever happened to me. It all has to do with the planning on camping on lakes/rivers with many campsites.
What about #3? The first time it crossed my mind was actually when I was in a reverse scenario - I had one of the islands at the south of Maple, and a group came to the island right beside us, asked if we were staying on our island for the night, and once we said yes they paddled to a different site. Not sure if it's because they wanted their own privacy, or they wanted to give us privacy, but either way they didn't camp beside us.
And now it's crossing my mind again because I'll be heading to Burntroot in a few weeks and I want one of the island sites - thing is, some of those islands have 2 sites in really close proximity so if I see each island has 1 site occupied for example, I'll need to decide whether to take one beside, or go to a shore site. Both of those scenarios are on pretty big lakes.
11 years ago, when I started in the interior of Algonquin, I would probably have been really put out and quite angry about finding someone on my properly reserved site. However, my trip in May 2017 really changed my perspective. I was backpacking through the cold & rain of the first week of May; and the WUT was closed shortly after I entered. Due to flooding, strong currents, a very leaky tent and hypothermia, I only stayed on the correct campsite, one night out of 5 nights. I had built in a day of rest on day 4, and this allowed me to hike on day 4 and catch up to where I was supposed to be. However, more rain, a dusting of snow, and more hypothermia, combined with a very leaky tent, meant I couldn't make it all the way to the right lake on night 5. Hiking the WUT trail at night, in the rain, in an incredibly weakened state would have been beyond foolhardy. So, I opted to stop for safety. I made it out of the bush on schedule and took a month to recover physically. I will forever more be sympathetic to any traveller (on land or water) who needs to share my campsite due to illness, injury or mishap.
Perhaps my experience can help others inform their attitudes for the betterment of all of us, in the Park.
For situations like this I think everyone would handle things a little bit differently - I meant more for squatters who say "Oh I thought this is where we were supposed to camp for the night?" or something like that.
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Trippythings,
My reasoning over the years has been to never camp in close proximity to another party of campers, unless I know them. First of all, you have no idea who these campers are and secondly, I do value my privacy when I am solo canoeing. I have had an experience on Burntroot Lake with two campers I met on the long portage into Narrowbag Lake from Cedar. We were both going to Burntroot and these two campers had their fishing rods stolen at night during a thunder storm by campers that were camped close to them and had left early the next morning. In fact, I did see them leave the next morning but knew nothing about this at the time. I found out later when fishing what had happened to these two fellows i met on the way in. Luckily, they were from Ottawa and I had an extra rod and reel that I lent them and another group of young campers lent them a reel. They returned my rod and reel to me once we were back in Ottawa and they had mailed the reel back to the other young campers who lived in Windsor. As it turned out, once these two fellows got back to Cedar Lake and due to the number on their permits, they figured out who actually took their rod and reels through the Access Point person. Actually, I even saw these robbers at the Cedar Lake access point before I started my trip. Unfortunately, they never got back their rods and reels as they really didn't have any factual evidence and no one actually saw them take the rod and reels as this was done in the middle of the night. Pretty discouraging when starting your week trip into Algonquin Park and the next morning wake up to having no rods and reels (they each had two rods and reels and all were taken). After that experience, I now put my rod and reel into my tent each night just in case. Might sound silly, but it gives me some peace of mind to know that I can fish the next morning. Mind you if someone stole my canoe, I do hope others are on the lake to help me get out. True story!!!!
Last edited by boknows (8/25/2017 11:23 am)
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I have a bit of a strong opnion on your hypothetical #2. If it was me on the lake with 2 sites,and occupying the site you were aiming for. There would have been a real good reason for me to not be where I was supposed to be. However, if you were to approach me and ask me to move, you would find yourself talking to a female that would not co-operate. I would consider such a request extremely rude, and, you're a total stranger, in which case I would not disclose to you my reason for being there. There is another site to take for you. You did not reserve a specific site, just a lake.
As for number 3, I don't mind if someone takes the other close site, most people are very respectful, and in al my years of camping I've never had an issue with close neighbours.
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It would be interesting to get the recommendation from park officials on some of these scenarios .. .especially the one where you have a permit for a lake and its full so obviously someone is squatting.
I have had this happen only once ... the group said they had a pass but would not show us ... we showed them ours. It was late and we offered to stay at a portage as long as they cleared out in the AM ... and they did no problem. I know you need to camp on a designated site but I figured if the rangers came along then we could easily explain the situation.
In general I'm not a fan of sharing a site with people I don't know. I don't get a lot of time in the woods so I'd hate to spend 1 night out of 3 or 4 of a trip with people that are annoying ... I'd rather stay somewhere else on the lake like a portage. But sometimes the shoe is on the other foot .. .we were windbound for 1.5 days on Big Crow at the ranger cabin .. .luckily it was occupied by rangers and not renters at the time ... so no problem.
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oops, wrong button
Last edited by tentsterforever (8/25/2017 3:52 pm)
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Ive had the first situation happen before, and we had our reservation papers and they refused to show us theirs. They basically told it's theirs and to go look for another. After about 30 minutes of arguing i yelled at them and told them to move their shit over or i was going to move it for them. It was already 7pm and no time to find another site.
They had the nerve to complain about my buddies smoking and us using "fowl language" The arrogance on these people was unbelievable. They left before we woke up so it ended up being alright but i was furious, and the fact that there's really nothing you can do about it pissed me off.
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Good thread! It's always good to discuss difficult situations and I do not think there is a clear-cut or blanket answer that will suit everybody - esp. with so many variable factors (travel impediments, health, etc). Here are my thoughts:
1. Depends;
A) If this single-site lake is a 'highlight lake' of my trip (ie: one I've desired to stay at for a while, one I fell in love with on a previous trip or for whatever reason) I would ask the intruders to move on. If they aren't in a cooperative mood, I would land my canoe and begin to set up camp regardless. As far as I'm concerned I've leased this plot of land from 2pm until 12pm and I will stay there. Then would also be a little passive-aggressive in that, I'd probably put some obnoxious hip hop or heavy metal (don't get me wrong, I appreciate all genres) on loud speaker, or a Kathy Griffin Special (yeesh) as loud as possible - hoping they would get sick of me and my loudness and move on. Now sure, some of you would say 'but... but... Peek, music is illegal in the backcountry!' and to that I say 'yeah well so is occupying land that I've leased for a fee - deal with it'.
B) On the other hand, if it's not a desired site or lake, and it was only picked as it was an appropriate distance from my previous night, I would just move on and make camp at the next available site. I'm not going to argue with someone over a mediocre campsite or lake. Not worth my time, effort or energy.
2. I would be heavily disappointed - but what can I do? I have no authority in the backcountry. So if I leased a plot of land on that lake, and there's a plot of land available, regardless if its the 'one I wanted' or not - that's that - if there is another spot to take I'll do so with reluctance, while muttering smack-talk in my mind about the crappy site and the d-bags on the other site, but you can't ask or expect anyone to move. I wouldn't - like tenster said, you have no idea why I am there, nor do I have to justify it to anyone but a warden - don't get me wrong, this would be a crappy situation and I wouldn't deliberately put anyone in it, but shit happens. Improvise; Adapt; Overcome. Robinson and Shippagew are great examples of this - both having two sites, both having one reservable and both have the other as a pretty crappy site. Anyone would be cheesed at not getting their targeted site, but as long as there is somewhere else on the lake for you to set up, your complaint would be baseless and you request would likely go unfulfilled.
3. Almost absolutely not. Like Bo, I really REALLY enjoy my time and privacy in the backcountry, whether alone or with a group. If its a few hundred meters, I wouldn't care so much. If the sites face each other - nopes - if I can hear people on their site from my site - nopes - so generally speaking camping near others is not something I would do. BUT.. again, if the site that I'd be passing up is amazing, I'll put the above aside and try to enjoy it!
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Forgot this one ... I had someone once paddle up and ask if we would switch sites with them ... we knew the other site was crappy (which is why we arrived early) and our site was totally setup already. So we politely said that we were already set up and really didn't want to spend time taking down camp, etc. We went about our business around the campsite but the two canoes just hung around .. they didn't like our answer I guess. They asked the same question in another way and even offered to help take our stuff down, etc. ... we kept answering politely and eventually ignored them ... I had a feeling that they were gonna come on and set up anyway at one point but they eventually moved on but it was an uneasy feeling for a while. I do wonder about the mindset of someone asking another group to move to a crappy site so they can get the good one ... but anyway.
But other folks do "get it" .. .we were on Sec lake one time and had a really nice island site .. .a guy comes up and asks politely when we are leaving since he'd love to get our site ... seemed like a decent guy so I said tomorrow AM and said if he wants when he sees up packing up camp come over and start dropping off his stuff ... he spent 1 night in one of the less desirable sites and then got a great one ... there must have been 2 or 3 people come ask us for our site when we were packing up but I told them that someone was already starting to set up ...
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The only time I can recall sharing a campsite in Algonquin was on an early season trip with two other guys. It was well into the evening when we reached the first campsite downstream from Grass Lake on the Nipissing River. The site was occupied by a woman who was traveling solo. It would have been a long paddle to the next campsite but fortunately she was happy to share her site with us. She was from Buffalo and was a member of the Wilderness Canoe Association. We had an enjoyable evening talking about canoeing with her.
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on my most recent solo trip I made the choice to share a site. I was backpacking, and it was getting late in the day. when I arrived at my lake the first site was occupied so I went to the second which was also taken. it was another 10km to the next lake. I did not ask the young men on the second site to see their permit (one of them slipped up as to what lake they were supposed to be on) instead I asked if I could share their site. it was a big site and I found a little spot well away from them. that day I simply hoped that I wouldn't have any problems with them because of how I approached the situation and the manner of how I spoke to them. I was also relying on my gut to tell me if this was a safe choice or not. lucky for me it worked out.
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My reasoning over the years has been to never camp in close proximity to another party of campers, unless I know them....
...True story!!!!
That's an unfortunate scenario, but I have to believe that it was a rare occurrence and for the most part I still think I trust that the people around me are going to be genuinely good people.
3. Almost absolutely not. Like Bo, I really REALLY enjoy my time and privacy in the backcountry, whether alone or with a group. If its a few hundred meters, I wouldn't care so much. If the sites face each other - nopes - if I can hear people on their site from my site - nopes - so generally speaking camping near others is not something I would do. BUT.. again, if the site that I'd be passing up is amazing, I'll put the above aside and try to enjoy it!
Fair, but what about the reverse? What if you were camping somewhere and people pulled up to a campsite in very close proximity to you. Would you care? Switch sites? Ask them to move?
Forgot this one ... I had someone once paddle up and ask if we would switch sites with them ... we knew the other site was crappy (which is why we arrived early) and our site was totally setup already. So we politely said that we were already set up and really didn't want to spend time taking down camp, etc. We went about our business around the campsite but the two canoes just hung around .. they didn't like our answer I guess. They asked the same question in another way and even offered to help take our stuff down, etc. ... we kept answering politely and eventually ignored them ... I had a feeling that they were gonna come on and set up anyway at one point but they eventually moved on but it was an uneasy feeling for a while. I do wonder about the mindset of someone asking another group to move to a crappy site so they can get the good one ... but anyway.
But other folks do "get it" .. .we were on Sec lake one time and had a really nice island site .. .a guy comes up and asks politely when we are leaving since he'd love to get our site ... seemed like a decent guy so I said tomorrow AM and said if he wants when he sees up packing up camp come over and start dropping off his stuff ... he spent 1 night in one of the less desirable sites and then got a great one ... there must have been 2 or 3 people come ask us for our site when we were packing up but I told them that someone was already starting to set up ...
I'm not sure I understand your first story - were you camping on a lake with only 1 permit? If not, and the group asked you to switch, I would just laugh... why would you leave your site just because someone else wants it? I'd be absolutely shocked if someone even tried to pull that move on me.
For the second story, I agree and don't think there's any harm in asking someone how long they're staying at the site for. I've done it before where I'm camping somewhere for more than 1 night and they have a site I want to move to. If they say they're staying there, I know not to waste my time paddling in the morning, and if they say they're leaving, great, I can switch sites the next day if I still want to.
Last edited by trippythings (8/28/2017 9:06 pm)
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No the lake had a few sites ... not many though and the one we had was by far the best. And they were all taken except the poorest one. So yeah they were basically saying "we don't want the last crappy site .. .so can we have yours?". And they did not ask to share ... they wanted us to move.
It was purely an attempt to intimidate us .. they were 4 guys and we were 2 .. .and I think that's why they hung around for a while hoping we would change our mind.
A campsite is not worth fighting for ... if it came down to it and we felt that they were going to rumble then we would have simply said fine and moved to the other one. A site is a site after all ... as long as we can pitch our tent and have a fire all is good ...
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