MartinG wrote:

It will be the end of APP for me. Site specific booking is the antithesis of the freedom that wilderness canoeing brings to my life. People trying to micro manage and control wild places is the death of them. May as well just take up golf.

What Martin said.  Except I'm too old to take up golf. 

TripperMike wrote:

Bright side? Site specific booking in Algonquin, although I despise it, will create accountability for people who abuse and trash the area.

That would require regular inspection of interior campsites, which simply doesn't (and won't) happen. 

Uppa wrote:

TripperMike wrote:

Bright side? Site specific booking in Algonquin, although I despise it, will create accountability for people who abuse and trash the area.

That would require regular inspection of interior campsites, which simply doesn't (and won't) happen. 

Very true, but at least other visitors would be able to report a timeline of finding trash.  

About a decade ago I filled an entire trash bag of garbage at a site on the 1st day of a week in the park (cans, bottles, all types of heavy stuff).  There was no way I could carry it with me so I hung it in a tree visible from the water and attached some orange tape for hi-vis.  A warden found it and called an emergency contact to inform them that their family members would be banned from ON parks for littering and leaving garbage, as we were the last reservation on that site.  When we returned home, we had to call and explain what I thought would have been an obvious situation.

Again, not a fan of the system moving in this direction, but in my own experience it could at least help hold people responsible and educate on proper LNT etiquette.  

Trippermike, I too was warned once for a filthy site, but in my case we had just arrived and were in fact trying to pick up the offending garbage before setting up. The warden claimed that we were leaving and it was our mess, in my case it was easy to prove otherwise though because we had only set out that morning...
fortunately it's rare that they're so belligerent but like in every enforcement role you do get the odd power-tripper

Jdbonney wrote:

I don’t see a massive difference between lake specific and site specific reservations.

In terms of how it works, ontario parks should follow the reservation rules parks Canada uses. They set a date in February or March and open all bookings for that park at the same time. Bookings open for 8am and an auto wait list starts at 7:30. No need for a 21 day reservation, just book what you need. No games.

 
The Parks Canada model looks to be compelling...btw, if you don't understand the differences (and the consequent implications) between lake-specific and site-specific booking policies kindly re-read my post above...they are completely different in very significant and important ways...one protects those with PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS that affect their access to some sites (and those with young children are included in this group as well), ensures sites booked by RESPONSIBLE people fairly in advance can actually accommodate the booking party's equipment, increases ACCOUNTABILTY by helping to expose and thus limit squaters, and probably increases ACCOUNTABILITY re: taking care of sites (garbage, cutting down trees etc)...the status quo simplify protects the able bodied, those who perhaps have limited tent space needs and/or those who feel ENTITLED to set up camp wherever they choose (whether they've actually booked a site on that particular lake or not) and are currently able to hide and remain anonymous (i.e enhances TRANSPARENCY)

Last edited by goneagainjon (2/25/2022 12:49 pm)

Jdbonney wrote:

I’m merely pointing out that having to book, for example, site #3 on a lake versus showing up and choosing from the available sites won’t change my route in any way. The “freedom” to choose my site on arrival doesn’t resonate with me. As long as reservations are required and I have to stay at a specific lake, I may as well know which site I’m staying on. I know the last time I was in quetico(a fair number of years ago) you could just tell them how many nights you were in the park and go wherever you wanted in that time. Not sure if that’s still the case up there but I’m sure it still is in wabakimi. Or crown land for that matter. As much as I love Algonquin, I understand that just isn’t possible as there would be toilet paper and garbage everywhere.

 
That's kinda' the point though friend...it won't change YOUR route...but what about those here who have mobility issues - those for whom the canoe landing at a given site is extremely important...what about those here who don't give a second thought to their mobility today but hope to continue paddling into their 60s and 70s? What about those who want to take their dad on a trip to celebrate his 75th bday? Those who have young children? Those whose camping group is 4 guys and 3 tents? You see, the actual site matters to them...it's not enough to know only the lake they'll be on...it's the difference between getting to enjoy the park their taxes pay for and not being able to go at all...self-centredness and entitlement are all the rage these days...maybe it's covid...or trump...but maybe, just maybe, we ought to consider the needs of others too once in a while instead of shouting 'my rights, my rights, my rights!'

Last edited by goneagainjon (2/25/2022 2:15 pm)

Jdbonney wrote:

I don’t see a massive difference between lake specific and site specific reservations.

There's one big difference: if you are forced for some reason to camp on a lake, which you didn't book (and considering one is in the wilderness, it could happen to anyone any time) - in former case it could be reasonably done; in latter there's a good chance that someone will arrive who has properly booked this site - and then what?
 

MartinG wrote:

My step mom is 83 and dad 79. They still trip and portage in Algonquin, Killarney, Temagami, Pukskwa etc... You don't need to manage the specific sites allotted to you on specific day. You need to manage your expectations.

Changing to site specific bookings is all about people shouting me, me, me. It's got nothing to do with considering the needs of other once in a while. Nothing to do with providing equal opportunity. It's about getting exactly what you want (me, me , me). It does not provide equal access to opportunity. It is a misguided attempt to guarantee results. An absolutely futile goal for a canoe trip.

I suspect it is going to lead to conflict at campsites and people dying trying to get to campsites. 

Wait, what? Because your dad and stepmother can access all sites everyone can? Guess the PCI initiative is just a massive waste of time?...it's about being inclusive...not exclusive and selfish and assuming the world is just like you...the word hubris comes to mind...can't believe the vitriol and flimsy arguments against some degree of site-specific hybrid booking system to accomodate those with some degree of physical limitation etc....the entitied me me me / f%^$ everyone else crowd are a dying breed of trolodytes and old fossils...the movement is already underway to a fairer more inclusive system...the only question is can we help shape it to ensure it balances everyone's interests

As for stopping at a lake unplanned due to inclement weather, of course that makes complete sense...there are often more sites than permits...if you were windbound and had set up on the site I'd booked before I got there, I'd of course insist you stay put and share our meal and single malt...do you honestly think fellow AP aficionados and trippers would kick you out to find a vacant site? Maybe I'm being naive and idealistic...maybe I'M Don Quixote lol

 

Last edited by goneagainjon (2/25/2022 7:17 pm)

swedish pimple wrote:

ok. jon,, tell me the plan going forward, 
   if  you had the power to make the changes that you feel are necessary how would you go about bringing these changes to light.
     i am little slow,, spell it out for me, you have raised some interesting points, 

 

Friend, I've never purported to have all the answers...but I believe I have a pretty good handle on the issue and the questions as I articulated at the beginning of the two threads (Barry's and mine)...I understand that site-specific bookings are being considered...I believe that there are those that will fight tooth and nail for the status quo as it suits them just fine due to: the size of their party, equipment needs, physical abilities, desire to camp wherever they'd like (see my earlier posts) and/or maybe they don't like change...and there are those whose needs are not being met (again, see my original posts)...they are taxpayers who need more predictability in the sites they book....those with physical limitations, young children, sites able to accommodate more than 1 tent, want greater accountability and visibility to those that abuse our park etc...I'd rather shape / influence the solution and changes that are coming vs have them imposed on us by those who might not appreciate the needs of those that use and love the park....that is all. Have I have editorialized about my disdain for entitlement, exclusion (of minorities and the physically challenged), selfishness and resistance to change and progress? Perhaps. But that's not my point...it's to awaken and yes challenge those that can't see the needs and point of view of others in order to effect and shape the change that is surely coming...believe me when I say that I am not the only one asking questions about reasonable access to the taxpayers parks

I'm most interested in solutions...I'm intrigued about the National Parks booking system and how it negates the game-playing fiasco at Ontario's front country parks...and I love the idea posted here earlier about a hybrid system allowing site-specific bookings for lakes close to access points...what other ideas are out there? Rather than whine and bitch and attack each other let's come up with ideas and figure out how we can be advocates and shape park policy

Last edited by goneagainjon (2/25/2022 8:25 pm)