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11/25/2020 11:21 am  #1


Reservations

Hi everyone

So parks Canada has announced a change to their reservation dates for 2021.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5813371

Basically they usually allow reservations starting in January but they are pushing that back to April.

I wonder what, if any, changes Ontario parks is planning. I think the reservation window should probably be shortened from 5 months and cancellation penalties should be enforced a little more than they were last year.

 

11/25/2020 2:17 pm  #2


Re: Reservations

RE: Ontario Parks

Seems they've already implemented some restrictions. Try booking a canoe trip within the 5-month window (using 5 months from today for example (which is also after the last friday in April, the normal 'opening date')) and you'll get this message:



I'm curious though, what advatage/benefit do you see in shortening the 5 month window? What do you think it will stop/promote?

I do agree about cancellation though, a lot of 'fully booked' lakes were empty this year. So much so it made me speculate if they (OP) were artifically filling them up to promote either distancing or to ease back on the damaged cause by excessive use. I have nothing to back that up, just a thought. 

Last edited by Peek (11/25/2020 2:20 pm)

 

11/25/2020 4:02 pm  #3


Re: Reservations

I could turn that question around....what’s the benefit of booking 5 months in advance? If reservations were only permitted a week before(or less) it would get rid of a lot of the gaming of the reservation system that goes on now.

I work for an employer that is very flexible. I can book leave months in advance or the day before. For my own personal and selfish reasons I would prefer A shorter reservation window as there is less chance of needing to change plans and better chance of great weather. When I book a mid week trip In July 5 months in advance my chances of good weather are pretty good. Booking a week before my chances are excellent.

I’m the first to admit there is no perfect solution for the reservation system. What works for me would be garbage for others who aren’t as flexible.

A free cancelation can’t continue either. I’m certain that was thoroughly abused last year.

     Thread Starter
 

11/25/2020 5:07 pm  #4


Re: Reservations

Jdbonney wrote:

I could turn that question around....what’s the benefit of booking 5 months in advance?

Sure you could, but I never suggested there was a benefit (however I will below) - I was more curious about what your perceived advantages/disadvantages were - and as you stated, it seems to be an idea born out of selfishness. Heck, I'd like a policy created where only I can go to Algonquin during the sunniest of days - but I'm not going to hold my breath, plus that would be super not cool to my fellow paddlers & explorers.

People are going to game it, one way or another - there is no stopping or preventing that. They'll just game it in a different way from now. People who don't care about wasted fees or cancellation fees will continue to do what they do - bet on that.

If reservations were narrowed to a week - you'd get an entirely different set of problems (see recent next-gen console launches and what happens to websites when availability suddenly opens up and everyone is trying to get the same thing). Also - who wants to wait that long to guarantee a route? I'm fortunate enough to be in the same boat as you regarding booking time off, but I'm also a massive planner and like to have my ducks in a row well in advance. A 7-day window is preposterous, and as you said, if weather is the primary motivator, and your vacation time is flexible, just cancel and rebook for a better week.

And I absolutely agree - the cancellation policy was heavily abused this year - no question about it. That could use some re-tooling for sure! Maybe one free cancellation per season (mistakes do happen / plans change) and a heavy handed penalty for the rest? I dunno.

 

11/25/2020 5:26 pm  #5


Re: Reservations

I agree. 1 week is nuts. I wouldn’t actually expect that.

I know the current game is to book 5 months and 28 days (I think 28, correct me if I’m wrong) before the day you actually want and then keep rolling it over. Ontario Parks says it’s not a problem. Tell that to anyone trying to book a trip in Killarney or anywhere near highway 60 in July. Good luck.

The penalty system just isn’t an issue for the larger groups and outfitters that can spread the penalty between multiple people or groups.

I’ve been lucky enough to book well in advance and the family and I aren’t afraid of a few portages which is really the game changer.

     Thread Starter
 

11/26/2020 8:40 am  #6


Re: Reservations

actually Peek , the 5 month deadline is very discriminatory to many employees, not just him. I myself have missed out on summer trips for the last 10 years before my retirement, because like most workplaces, mine STARTED booking holidays in January or later, but because of conflicts and adjustments, the bookings were rarely settled before May. My daughter's company only confirmed ANY holidays on June 1st. 
I would much prefer it if a percentage opened for booking each month up to a month before your date

 

11/26/2020 9:05 am  #7


Re: Reservations

Did you really just use the phrase 'discriminatory' when describing a reservation window? By that logic, steep portages are discriminatory to the disabled. Lookouts discriminate against the blind. Rocks discriminate against my gel-coat. C'mon.

Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think its 'discriminatory'. However it's definitely a disadvantage. Especially the June 1st bit - thats ridiculous, I couldn't handle that.

 

11/26/2020 9:09 am  #8


Re: Reservations

Jdbonney wrote:

The penalty system just isn’t an issue for the larger groups and outfitters that can spread the penalty between multiple people or groups.

This is a very interesting angle, one that I hadn't considered. I can definitely see this happening, in addition to the other types of gaming going on. I'm not even sure how Ontario Parks could approach stopping this. Because again - those with the means ($$) to do so, will continue.

 

11/26/2020 10:02 am  #9


Re: Reservations

Peek wrote:

Jdbonney wrote:

The penalty system just isn’t an issue for the larger groups and outfitters that can spread the penalty between multiple people or groups.

This is a very interesting angle, one that I hadn't considered. I can definitely see this happening, in addition to the other types of gaming going on. I'm not even sure how Ontario Parks could approach stopping this. Because again - those with the means ($$) to do so, will continue.

 
Huge problem in my opinion. A solo traveller or even a family would likely see the cancellation penalty as an impediment. A group of 4-8 people going on a trip together (Or 2 families, or 3 couples etc) who can split that cancellation fee are very much incentivized to block off multiple dates and lakes to guarantee themselves the route they want and then share the change and cancellation fees among the group.

I believe, if memory serves, Ontario parks has taken some steps to address this by charging for the full reservation upon booking where they used to only charge for the first night plus the reservation fee.

     Thread Starter
 

11/26/2020 11:59 am  #10


Re: Reservations

It used to be the non-refundable fee, plus a refundable $50 deposit. The $50 would go towards your permits when it came time to pay, but if you cancelled, it would be refunded (depending on timeframes and what % refund you were entitled to).

I like the ability to book far in advance, just to lock in dates. It makes it easier planning time off with work, and for large groups it makes it much easier to coordinate with everyone's schedules.

But I care much less about changes to the booking timeframes as I do about the proposed flat fee per night regardless of group size that they're likely going to introduce. That will be a major deterrent for people travelling solo or with one other person.


Trip Reports & Campsite Pictures
algonquinbeyond.com
 

11/27/2020 10:28 am  #11


Re: Reservations

sorry, but portages and lookouts are ultimately decided by nature, reservation policies are decided by bureaucrats! nature does not discriminate, but bureaucrats definitely do, what else could you call it when the vast majority of lower income people are excluded simply because they can't afford to be their own boss and have no control over their vacation time???
would you rather I call it elitist??

 

11/27/2020 2:06 pm  #12


Re: Reservations

Is the suggestion here that we somehow survey all regular AP users to determine which one has the least flexible vacation policy and then edit the overall policy so all users have to suffer with that crappy policy?

If so that’s a hard no from me.


We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it.
 - George Washington Sears
 

11/28/2020 12:49 pm  #13


Re: Reservations

ShawnD wrote:

Is the suggestion here that we somehow survey all regular AP users to determine which one has the least flexible vacation policy and then edit the overall policy so all users have to suffer with that crappy policy?

If so that’s a hard no from me.

WOW!!! how ignorant can you be???
There are thousands of people that work in large companies that assign holidays strictly by seniority, and end up waiting until the last minute to book, is it so bad to leave some options for them, or is camping to be for the elites only???.
I'm so done with the snobs here!

 

11/28/2020 7:55 pm  #14


Re: Reservations

Griz.. you trippin. Smoke a fatty and relax.

 

11/28/2020 8:44 pm  #15


Re: Reservations

So a few thoughts. It is in the Parks  best interest to have a long reservation window. I’m actually surprised it isn’t longer.

A longer window means more bookings. More change and cancel fees. And they get your money earlier. All revenue benefits.

Plus people who come from Europe etc to AP can’t have a 1 month window. Just not feasible. They will want definite plans if the are making that kind of a trip.

Also...Shorter windows I assume would mean even more gaming the system not less.


We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it.
 - George Washington Sears
 

11/28/2020 10:57 pm  #16


Re: Reservations

I’m wondering, when I read jdbonneys link it mentions these new arrangements are for national parks.  I recall algonquin being called at times a national park, but it is under provincial jurisdiction. Would the same booking rule still stand? And another thing I just saw online when I googled 2021 fees was the prices for per night camping are to be $19.00 per night per person for back country in 2021 for algonquin ( and other parks). Not yet a flat fee per site. Maybe we’ll still have a reasonably normal year coming up, and maybe all of us, including those that can’t pick their holidays untill June ( my daughter included) will have time to organize a trip. Let cooler heads prevail,
we all like to get the trip of our dreams in.

 

11/28/2020 11:06 pm  #17


Re: Reservations

Algonquin is a provincial park. The link I posted refers to national
Parks only, in ontario that would be pukaskwa, thousand islands, rouge valley, beusoleil island and a few others.

I’m not sure where you saw the $19 per night but I just did a quick search and it shows 12.43 per night per person.

http://www.ontarioparks.com/fees/backcountry/2021

     Thread Starter
 

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