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Maybe if the government just sent a clear message to everyone saying something like:
EMERGENCY ALERT
Stop the spread. COVID19 can be deadly. The time to act is NOW.
Everyone but essential workers need to stay home. Only go out if absolutely necessary to pick up groceries, prescriptions or go to a medical appointment.
Ignoring self-isolation or physical distancing advice can have devastating effects and endanger lives.
Protect yourself and others. Stay home.
Learn more at
Not sure what the "stay home" part means... camping is probably ok right?
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FACT #1: Ontario Provincial Government HAS closed ALL provincial parks.
FACT #2: Ontario Provincial Government HAS instituted a fire ban for all of Ontario.
FACT #3: Ontario Provincial Government HAS NOT implemented a LOCK DOWN for all Ontario residents.
FACT #4: Ontario Provincial Government HAS NOT closed crown land for camping.
Could the above have to do with the ONTARIO CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS? I suggest everyone read this important Charter.
Last edited by boknows (4/05/2020 4:56 am)
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boknows wrote:
Awaiting any replies disputing the above and some answers as to why FACTS #3 and #4 still exist today
Could it have to do with the ONTARIO CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS?
Psychology. In Italy when the government instituted a total lockdown people began to feel helpless and thus began to ignore the lockdown and that’s why Italy was the biggest centre for this outbreak. People have to feel like there is hope, so the government hasn’t instituted a complete lockdown. It’s like taxes. People are willing to pay a bit of tax provided they feel it’s fair. However, raise that tax too high and people start to look for ways to avoid the tax. The higher the tax, the more people try to avoid it. Same situation here. Like trippy pointed out they are being very clear about the expectation and being hopeful people comply because the alternative, a total lockdown, brings a host of very real and very serious consequences along with it.
I hope you reconsider.
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Also, provinces have setup very real inter provincial roadblocks. This is a complete violation of section 6 of the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms but is being justified as a reasonable infringement of the charter at this time.
Last edited by Jdbonney (4/05/2020 5:02 am)
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Psychology. In Italy when the government instituted a total lockdown people began to feel helpless and thus began to ignore the lockdown and that’s why Italy was the biggest centre for this outbreak.
Really? And where did you get this information from??? Your mind??? Your words here are 100% untrue!!! None of the experts (and I know you are not one of them) agree with what you have stated here. The GRADUAL lock down in Italy was implemented to decrease the spread of Covid-19 THAT ALREADY EXISTED IN HUGE NUMBERS. Italy's main problem with Covid-19 had to do with a very older population, citizens having other major health issues, and a very close knit family situation. That is how this virus got out of control, not because of a Government lock down!!!!!
Last edited by boknows (4/05/2020 5:50 am)
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Perhaps you should heed your own advice and read the forum rules on personal attacks and arguments.
You asked a question, I provided an answer.
As I said above, we don’t see eye to eye on this issue. Feel free to keep responding. I’m happy to keep going, or not since we clearly aren’t getting anywhere.
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NAH. time to shut er down as this really isn't a forum for this topic. Stay safe!
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An excellent choice. Again, I hope you reconsider.
I truly hope I don’t get an opportunity to say I told you so.
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Accuracy in messaging is one of the victims in this Covid-19 event. Just yesterday the premier of Ontario said for people to stay home except for groceries, pharmacies and medical appointments. Numerous cell-phone alerts went out saying the same thing. Those words read like a 'lockdown'.
I've been going out as long as I can remember for a brisk daily 45 minute walk. I call it a 'health walk'. Obviously, these days I've been diligent to observe social distancing and avoidance of 'surfaces' while on these walks.
When I read the alert, I took it as either an official proclamation of a 'lockdown' or an unfortunate 'mis-speak'. Concerned that my daily walk was now forbidden, I phoned our regional police non-emergency office and asked if such a 'lockdown' was now in effect. The response was that no such lockdown had been declared and I was definitely free to take such walks as long as I observed 'social distancing', didn't participate in gatherings and respected facility closures.
So, it looks like even the premier may be capable of 'mis-speaking' and issuing inaccurate messages. Or is it the police department that is mis-informed? Whatever the official reality is behind all this messaging, the intent is to exercise conscientious care in protecting our collective health.
I hope that we forum users can recognize the need for us to exercise similar conscientious care in protecting our collective health. If one becomes intent on expressing ego-centric cleverness toward circumventing the exercise of such care, then one risks no-longer being part of the solution but rather becoming part of the problem.
And, if clarification of official messaging is required, please try to get it through official channels, not through inflammatory debate on this forum!
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Thanks Barry. Hope you’re doing well and as always thanks for running a great site.
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not to argue but your facts are incorrect Ken. "Could the above have to do with the ONTARIO CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS? I suggest everyone read this important Charter. "
I suggest you read it especially ART1
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it SUBJECT ONLY TO SUCH REASONABLE LIMITS prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
Last edited by scoutergriz (4/05/2020 7:51 am)
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Thanks Barry.
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I don’t think it has anything to do with misspeaking. The exact opposite I think.
It’s likely intentionally stronger language because there are still a lot of Canadians not complying with the basic requests.
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...When I read the alert, I took it as either an official proclamation of a 'lockdown' or an unfortunate 'mis-speak'. Concerned that my daily walk was now forbidden, I phoned our regional police non-emergency office and asked if such a 'lockdown' was now in effect. The response was that no such lockdown had been declared and I was definitely free to take such walks as long as I observed 'social distancing', didn't participate in gatherings and respected facility closures....
I agree it sounds very much like an unofficial declaration of lockdown. But what's been happening since the beginning of this pandemic is all authorities are informed from the very top. A few weeks ago I needed to speak with Ontario Public Health as well as my local health authority, and even they had to say multiple times "let me check what the current recommendations are". It's an extremely top down approach right now... so with your example, the regional police are just passing along the latest information that they have. Since there's technically no 'official' lockdown just yet, as far as they know you're still allowed to go for walks.
They haven't explicitly stated you cannot go for walks anymore, but it's also the first time they haven't included 'exercise or walks outside' in their list of reasons to leave the house. The main reason they're keeping this a grey area is because of all pet owners. You can't tell the public that leisurely walks are forbidden but if you have a dog feel free to roam the streets. They're doing their best to imply that if it's not necessary, just don't do it ie. all the "stay home" messaging.
I would say take caution when going for walks, if you live in a populated area like Toronto try and wear a mask of some sort while outside. And maybe go less frequently (every other day instead of every day) so that if they enforce a strict lockdown it won't be as much of a shock to your regular routine.
I'm just using your walking as an example Barry but I think the same can be implied for many other routines and parts of 'regular' life. I know I've stated my opinion before but I think this obviously applies to camping as well. It's completely non-essential and it's best for the community as a whole if we all just stay home unless it's absolutely necessary to leave the house. No one is enjoying what we're all going through right now, but it's the people who say "I don't care I'm going to do what I want to do" that are going to prolong this new, but hopefully temporary, way of life.
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Thanks Barry - your words regarding collective health certainly resonate. I actually laid awake thinking about this topic (and the situation overall) weighing out personal/mental health, responsibility and probability factors. I scrapped my thoughts of an outing days ago, but held to a belief that it may be done cautiously and judiciously by some who truly need the outdoor fix. I did not catch yesterday's amber alert until this morning (my bad for not having my phone), and it does make it clear to stay home unless absolutely necessary. As we are well aware, this situation is rapidly changing and I typically try my best to keep on top of the news. A very large concern involves people traveling/migrating to their cottages and potentially spreading infection in those communities. Not good.
FYI, the province's list of essential services has also been reduced:
Thanks again for running such a respectable forum. Peace and safety to all.
Last edited by hiker72 (4/05/2020 9:44 am)
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Throughout this whole mess I've been pretty firmly on the side of everyone just needs to stay home and ride this out, and have been more than happy to share that opinion with anyone who seems to think otherwise. But it's funny how we all have blind spots as far as our own actions go. For example, while I've been working from home for the past three weeks, I've also been going for long walks and runs. In fact, I just got back from a run this morning and I can tell you that I wasn't the only one out doing the same thing (all keeping lots of distance, but still out). I saw yesterday's alert and it didn't once cross my mind that it meant I should be rethinking that part of my routine, but of course I should. In fact, I probably should have been rethinking it a couple of weeks ago. While it's true the government hasn't issued a full lockdown at this point, it's also true that if they have to do so it's likely because things have gotten worse. So why force the issue? If we all do our bit now (and, frankly, at this point I think that means doing more than the what is currently required) maybe things don't have to get bad enough that they need to make the lockdown explicit.
Anyways, this is a long winded way of saying how valuable this thread has been to me in keeping me honest with myself and forcing me to think about my assumptions. Hope everyone is doing as well as they can through this. (And I’m not saying that walks and runs are out or criticizing anyone who has been doing the same as I have, just that it’s important we keep thinking critically about our actions through this).
Last edited by AlgonquinLakes (4/05/2020 10:50 am)
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Went for a bike ride with the family and most but not all people were good about social distancing. But during the whole thing I felt there were just too many people on the same trail. I am glad that the weekend is over and I’ll go back to my “new normal” weekday routine of taking the daughter and the loner dog out to my favourite super remote and under utilized patch of nature that is only a stone’s throw from my urban existence. There, my biggest worries are only poopie pants and killing the dog with over-excretion. I hope we all, as a society, improve our social distancing and I also hope that responsible individuals that choose to go camping, alone, are not made to feel that they are disproportionately aiding the spread of the pandemic.
