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6/14/2018 1:50 pm  #18


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

John Connelly wrote:

...
And it's not too late Keg , can I sign ya up fer the Logging Days festivities ? It's goin ta be a blast !
 

I think I'll be on the french that weekend but thanks for the offer.  Took students to the logging museum years ago and was as surprised as they were that the park was originally set up to preserve logging rights. Makes sense for the time though and 130 years later doesn't interfere with the stuff I do in the park.

As a side note, Kevin with the naturalists does a great job jumping into the role of old-timey logger.

But I do think that some of your political comments were rather opinion based.

 

6/15/2018 6:18 pm  #19


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Thanks Keg  ...... I agree , I'll do some selective cutting of some of those shade intolerant opinion based comments .

A tip of the hat to ya for bringing young open impressionalble minds to the Logging Museum . I would think , as you mentioned they may now be more aware of Algonquin Parks's multi-use history , and with that shared knowledge , become future stewards of this special place for the benefit of all .
Ya ..... I also agree , for the four or five times a year I visit Algonquin as a recreationalist , it's never interefered with my enjoyment of this woundrous place .

Last edited by John Connelly (6/15/2018 8:34 pm)

 

6/18/2018 2:47 pm  #20


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

For what its worth I agree with you Barry ... I think this is less about politics and more about improving the state of the park and if we as members of this forum can put our weight behind a movement that makes the park better for our needs then why not.  From what I can see natives and loggers have been very successful in getting use of the park ... maybe we can learn from them.  I sometimes wonder if our voice ... the .. the folks who post here and at other outdoor tripping sites is really being heard in any organized manner.  Is there a groups that represents camper on a regular basis to lobby the government?    

If this discussion helps us keep abreast of issues and hold politicians accountable so we campers can influence what goes on in AP then why not ... if there one thing that all political parties understand is that votes matter ...      

 

6/18/2018 4:51 pm  #21


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Dead_Weight (DW) wrote:

 I sometimes wonder if our voice ... the .. the folks who post here and at other outdoor tripping sites is really being heard in any organized manner.  Is there a groups that represents camper on a regular basis to lobby the government?     

Hmmm....You mean something like the Algonquin Backcountry Recreationalists?
http://www.algonquinadventures.com/ABRarchived/index.html
 

 

6/18/2018 8:33 pm  #22


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

"In 2015/2016, sales values of forest products by the Algonquin Forestry Authority were $20.6 million.  Contractors engaged from communities in the region were paid $19 million, and the AFA had a net income of $ 650,000.  The AFA is financially self-sufficient with no cost to the taxpayers.

Based on a 2015/2016 harvest level of 423,641 m3, the Algonquin Park Forest contributed $356 million to the Ontario economy in terms of value added. "

Why is it that protected areas so often have to be based in large part on their economic value? It's a rare park these days in Canada or elsewhere in the world that a park is supported principally on its ecological values.

 

6/18/2018 9:21 pm  #23


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Mandola...  Why are protected areas  based in large part by their economic value .
From my perspective the interests of all vs the interests of " our "  or  the " us vs them " mentality....have been well represented over the years and particularly so since the inception of the AFA and the ongoing public consultations .

" AFA prepared the 2010-2020 Forest Management Plan and the 2015-2020 Phase 2 FMP in cooperation with Algonquin Park MNRF, local Algonquin Aboriginal communities, and the Algonquin Park Local Citizen’s Committee.

Public Consultation for these Plans was conducted for both phases."

Historically Algonquin Park has served many interests over the years .
 I am interested and ask why.... why it is... that such well intended special interest groups such as Algonquin Eco- Watch , ABR and others have gone by the wayside ..... maybe a little too much about " our " interests , and not enough about all ..... we as a collective , for the benefit of all , that have long coexisted and shared Algonquin Park .... recreationally , in  livelihood as in " bread on the table "... and many varied interests .

 

Last edited by John Connelly (6/18/2018 9:41 pm)

 

6/19/2018 7:05 am  #24


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Here we go again... today's news release on Ford's promised cuts to government spending and services. In the past MNRF has had to take significant cuts, since services are viewed as non-essential by some in Queen's Park relative to bigger concerns with health care, law enforcement, education, industrial development, housing and all critical services. In the past, both the Environmental Commissioner and the Auditor-General of Ontario have stated that MNRF is badly underfunded, understaffed and needs the $$$ necessary to operate properly.

My guess is contract staff in APP have already been hired so the freeze may not apply there, unless contract hires haven't actually started working or haven't been been formally signed on. Long-term spending cuts will probably not be announced for several months until auditors have examined the books to define what's considered fat and what isn't. Allocated $$$ planned for contracts can also be held back and returned to Queen's Park by the minister as normal OP, without the need for audit and review.

No statement yet that I could find from the NGOs interested in protecting APP, such as CPAWS, Wildlands League, Earthroots, Ontario Nature, Ecojustice and the rest but may be in the news once the cuts are in place.

...


Ontario’s Progressive Conservatives have put the public service on a hiring freeze and are halting all discretionary government spending until after the party takes office and can audit the province’s books.

Ministries across Canada’s largest provincial government were told to immediately limit spending, including curtailing public events and stopping unnecessary travel, less than two weeks before premier-designate Doug Ford and his cabinet take office.

Most of the spending limits, including a freeze on hiring by the public service, will remain in place until after Mr. Ford delivers on a campaign promise to complete an exhaustive, line-by-line audit of the Ontario government, according to a Tory spokesman.

...

Along with the hiring limits, a number of new restrictions have been placed on spending. Ministries have been told to immediately halt all expenditures that are not necessary for public safety – which includes requests for proposals on future projects, outside consulting services and contractors, travel, events and communications with the public. Work already under way should be slowed or put on a temporary hold if possible, the directive says.

...



https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontarios-doug-ford-orders-hiring-freeze-for-public-servants/
 

     Thread Starter
 

6/19/2018 10:11 am  #25


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Summer students sign their contracts the day they start work. For most of the interior student rangers in Algonquin that will be July 2nd. The job offers have already been made and accepted, so hopefully there won't be any changes to the scheduled start dates, but given the wording of the announcement on the hiring freeze there is a chance the summer positions could be at risk. 

 

6/19/2018 12:36 pm  #26


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Hi Methye ... I think the ABR was dissolved in 2015 ... 

I don't think there's any association that speaks for the campers ... 

 

6/19/2018 12:56 pm  #27


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Since it was mentioned in the original post there is one thing we should clarity ... just because we don't see logging in the park doesn't mean its not doing any damage or affecting us in any way.  It definitely is.  I grew up cutting pulp wood, sawlogs, veneer and firewood and have witnessed the effect of logging over several decades.  However assuming that they are practising modern logging practises (e.g. balloon tires on treefarmers, no clear cutting) the effect is dramatically reduced.  For that reason I think logging has a  place in the park ... assuming of course that companies are using modern techniques.  

​                        

 

6/19/2018 1:11 pm  #28


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Hey Methye... It seems that once John Winters retired as Superintendent of Algonquin Park, the voice of ABR slowly became ignored.  We put in many hours on behalf of those that use the back country but the powers that be did not seem to care any longer. Eventually it was quite evident we were just talking to a wall and ABR was dissolved.

Sean

 


SeanOfAjax
Paddling Adventures Radio
www.paddlingadventuresradio.com
"Grab a paddle and get on the water"
 

6/19/2018 3:50 pm  #29


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Yes Rick ...... " here we go again "
When ya've lived and voted long enough in Ontario , one can sure notice trends ....... how history repeats itself and at times comes back ta bite some in the arse .

As was the case with the " Common Sense Revolution " of the Mike Harris government of the nineties .
After 15 yrs of fiscal mismanagement by the previous Liberal and NDP governments , it took significant decisions and cuts that affected Algonquin Park at the time ...... to get the books back in order .

I recall reading this editorial @ the time , and since republished in the Globe and Mail .
"He ( Mike Harris ) has been prepared to suffer the opposition of many to create a more accountable and cost-efficient public sector for all. "

Yes...... Here we go again . Another PC Government having to do the not so popular hard work , and the making of some tough choices .
For that I am resentful to those that have allowed this to happen once again .
You and I , aint goin anywhere Rick , and I suppose Algonquin Park will still be there fer all to enjoy .
It's not all bad though Rick , the Algonquin Park forest's contribution of $ 356 million to the Ontario economy , will help ease yer displeasure .
From those I chat with in Toronto , I hear it's a busy spot down there @ Queen's Park ..... there's a gravy train being loaded @ Union Station that's pullin out soon . It's gotta heavy load  , with the  burden of a 350 billion dollar Ontario debt that we all now will have to deal with fer the coming years ahead  !

Last edited by John Connelly (6/19/2018 6:07 pm)

 

6/19/2018 6:44 pm  #30


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

SeanOfAjax wrote:

Hey Methye... It seems that once John Winters retired as Superintendent of Algonquin Park, the voice of ABR slowly became ignored.  We put in many hours on behalf of those that use the back country but the powers that be did not seem to care any longer. Eventually it was quite evident we were just talking to a wall and ABR was dissolved.

Sean

 

I know the history. I was just posting that link for DeadWeight's benefit (for those that didn't click, it is specifically a link to the update dissolving the ABR). I was trying to show that organizing and speaking up had been tried, and had come to naught, alas. You folks fought the good fight, but what can you do. Just be aware that your efforts did not go completely unnoticed and hold your heads high!
 

 

6/20/2018 8:52 am  #31


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Sean and Methye... just a quick comment on lack of responsiveness wrt ABR and at the same time to Algonquin Eco Watch which also disbanded for similar reasons IIRC. Both the Environmental Commissioner and the Auditor General of Ontario have commented that MNR is and was underfunded and understaffed, so don't be surprised if they weren't responding much. They likely didn't have the staff and the funds to deal with it. I've seen this myself inside MNR, overworked staff lacking the time to deal with public requests on various issues... lots of complaints resulting. Details are available in the ECO's and AGO's reports along with other issues being discussed here.

PS... it's always been interesting that, although by law, Ontario parks are "dedicated to the people of Ontario", there has never been the opportunity for Ontario residents to formally comment on whether logging should be allowed in APP. MNR may already know how that kind of vote is going to turn out, if past comments were any indication. Anyway, chaos or order, unresponsive or attentive, we'll see how the new administration develops as those $6 billion in cuts are carried out.

     Thread Starter
 

6/21/2018 9:09 pm  #32


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Thank-you Barry , for allowing this discussion to continue under this sub forum " Ethics "
The apple has been peeled by many , and now we're getting ta the core .

Rick , you're comment ... " there has never been the opportunity for Ontario residents to formally comment on whether logging should be allowed in APP"
I disagree and find it to be rather misleading , and even unethical to suggest so .
Barry himself has been part of an advisory group that has participated in such formal discussions .

This issue has been an ongoing topic for decades , as has the continual ongoing public consultation required by law .

Exerpt from AFA website

"A representative group of interested parties has been selected from a comprehensive list of potential stakeholders to serve as the Advisory Group and liaise on a continuing basis with AFA. The list of potential stakeholders was developed through a review of values, issues and interest groups and a stakeholder analysis completed by AFA and CMC Ecological Consulting.   The Advisory Group consultation process include introductory training and facilitated workshops dealing with the identification and selection of values, objectives, indicators and targets for the SFM. Subsequent meetings involve the identification of values of specific importance to environmental, social and economic concerns and needs of members and stakeholder groups and the development of suitable objectives, indicators and targets for each "

I've always enjoyed apples , often save the core , dry the seeds in open light ....  then plant them a few years later in a fertive spring .
 

Last edited by John Connelly (6/21/2018 10:11 pm)

 

6/22/2018 9:46 am  #33


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Hi John ... I think part of Ricks comment is still valid ... if a vote was ever taken from the people of Ontario or perhaps more specifically the people who use Ontario parks, if logging should be allowed in provincial parks I think the answer would be "No".  Or even more specifically if the people who use Algonquin Park had a vote I think it would be overwhelming "No" ... not trying to put words in your mouth Rick but I think that's at least part of the point you are trying to make.   

Allowing logging in Algonquin is a matter of giving a boost to a local economy ... which is important ... but I think if the people who use the park had a vote not way it would be going on. 

 

6/22/2018 10:30 am  #34


Re: Doug Ford's "clean up our parks" promise

Just like to clarify something that John alluded to. The advisory group that I participated in did not discuss whether logging should be allowed in the park.

Rather, I was a representative of recreationalists' concerns regarding the impact of logging operations on their backcountry experience, in an advisory group which was a prerequisite of the AFA's designation as a sustainable forestry operation under the Canadian Standards Association. That participation started in 2006 (as the operator of this website) and continued through to 2014. My participation in the advisory committee from 2012 to 2014 were as a formal representative of the ABR (Algonquin Backcountry Recreationalists). From 2008 onward, the ABR also made numerous forestry-related submissions to the AFA.

For more archived details, please refer to ... http://www.algonquinadventures.com/forest/ForestIndex.htm  .. and .. http://www.algonquinadventures.com/ABRarchived/index.html

 

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